Thoughts on Libertarianism

[littlebabyjesus]

But it’s true. There is ample for all.

For all to live as you live now in a sustainable way?

Even if that were true (which I doubt it is - iirc you drive a car), it leaves the question of people as we are. How do we persuade those who currently take more than their fair share to take less?

There is no post-scarcity. That's the worst kind of utopian thinking as it's a flat denial of the state we are in.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

For all to live as you live now in a sustainable way?

Even if that were true (which I doubt it is - iirc you drive a car), it leaves the question of people as we are. How do we persuade those who currently take more than their fair share to take less?

There is no post-scarcity. That's the worst kind of utopian thinking as it's a flat denial of the state we are in.

Yeah, just ignore Serge Forward's brilliant post coz it's inconvenient for you

 

[kabbes]

Without taking sides here, it seems to me that there is a failure to define “scarcity” in a consistent way. One group is using it to refer to whether there is enough food to feed everyone. The other is using it to refer to whether everybody could live in the same way as the average human in the West.

 

[mojo pixy]

Projects to change the world, really.

But what don't you buy? The fact that millions of tons of food is routinely destroyed because it's been over-produced and is unprofitable? The fact that the bulk of the world's population lives either at basic subsistence level or extreme poverty? The fact that tens of thousands of people living on the planet continue to die every single day because of poverty and malnutrition? None of these things are accidental. They are a social, political and economic choice by those who run and profit from the current set up.

I can't remember exactly the most recent figures but enough food is currently produced to adequately feed everyone on the planet two or three times over. This means that global capitalism has in fact been post-scarcity for several decades now. So scarcity is basically artificial, something manufactured solely to perpetuate capitalism.

Great post. Next up: how to get a billion people to agree. Then, identifying the changes needed. After that, how to get a billion to agree to those changes, or at least to accept them without massive social unrest etc, when they realise what they have to give up. Humans don't just live on food, and needs are way less than wants.

(Worth noting that a billion people is still a small minority of total humanity. Not even a sixth right now, soon enough a tenth)

Yeah, just ignore Serge Forward's brilliant post coz it's inconvenient for you

Posts being ignored all over the place though.

 

[Serge Forward]

Great post. Next up: how to get a billion people to agree. Then, identifying the changes needed. After that, how to get a billion to agree to those changes, or at least to accept them without massive social unrest etc, when they realise what they have to give up. Humans don't just live on food, and needs are way less than wants.

(Worth noting that a billion people is still a small minority of total humanity. Not even a sixth right now, soon enough a tenth)

Posts being ignored all over the place though.

Aye, there's the rub. How to get (at least) a billion people to agree probably isn't the most difficult bit either, as most of those on the shitty end of things already have a fair grasp of the whole scarcity problem. It's not just how to change things, what way to change things and what form that change will eventually take, it's understanding that change is even possible. But without that change, we'll sink deeper into barbarism and eventually the planet will burn.

If everyone had littlebabyjesus' attitude, the likelihood of total barbarism and a burning planet is pretty much nailed on. I'm not optimistic for any meaningful change either, but I'm of the opinion that if you don't fight for something better (eg anarchist communism) then getting nowt is a dead cert.

 

[danny la rouge]

The point is we need system change, not better individuals. The problems are systemic.

 

[mojo pixy]

The point is we need system change, not better individuals. The problems are systemic.

It's a bit circular though isn't it? Individuals create and maintain systems, systems produce individuals, isn't it necessary to work on both at the same time, somehow?

I don't know, I feel like I'm done having answers. Religions have answers, ideologies have answers, but they all fall down in the end. And we still have to live.

Fuckit, I'm at work and shouldn't even be posting

 

[8ball]

Without taking sides here, it seems to me that there is a failure to define “scarcity” in a consistent way. One group is using it to refer to whether there is enough food to feed everyone. The other is using it to refer to whether everybody could live in the same way as the average human in the West.

So where is the point of post-scarcity exactly? Or just very roughly, that would do for the purposes of discussing.

 

[8ball]

I seem to recall Bookchin's point being that scarcity is enforced by the capitalists/state.

Once you bring in the notion of Veblen goods, you could say scarcity is actively created by capitalism.

 

[8ball]

The point is we need system change, not better individuals. The problems are systemic.

And obviously any system changes that rest on the precondition of better individuals will be non-starters at best, and at worst will lead to monstrous atrocities.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

It's a bit circular though isn't it? Individuals create and maintain systems, systems produce individuals, isn't it necessary to work on both at the same time, somehow?

I don't know, I feel like I'm done having answers. Religions have answers, ideologies have answers, but they all fall down in the end. And we still have to live.

Fuckit, I'm at work and shouldn't even be posting

I guess we need structures for people, not people for systems.

 

[mojo pixy]

I guess we need structures for people, not people for systems.

Pithy.

'We' is doing some very heavy lifting though, if you mean 'humanity in general' then I return to my question, how will 'all of us' co-operate to make those systems? There's a good chance 'we' will need to use systems that exist already, so how will 'we' change those with everyone's consent?

If you just mean 'me and people who think and feel like me' then meh.

 

[Koknbul]

Simply put : libertarian is an oxymoron
My explanation to this is to be truly liberal is to live without a central government of any kind

With the advent of AI technology we might be liberal in the future, where everyone is connected as one.

But for now it is unfortunately not possible

 

[Serge Forward]

Simply put : libertarian is an oxymoron
My explanation to this is to be truly liberal is to live without a central government of any kind

With the advent of AI technology we might be liberal in the future, where everyone is connected as one.

But for now it is unfortunately not possible

You really don't make good use of the little you know.

 

[Koknbul]

You really don't make good use of the little you know.

Just thought sharing here buddy !
Your thought has obviously turned into an opinion, because you held on to it tooooo long !

Would you care to enlighten me as my clairvoyant skills are a tad rusty ???

 

[Pickman's model]

Just thought sharing here buddy !
Your thought has obviously turned into an opinion, because you held on to it tooooo long !

Would you care to enlighten me as my clairvoyant skills are a tad rusty ???

All your skills are a tad rusty

 

[Koknbul]

All your skills are a tad rusty

Surly not all of them !
Time to acquire new ones ?

 

[Pickman's model]

Surly not all of them !
Time to acquire new ones ?

There's no point acquiring new skills when you can't do anything with the ones you claim

 

[Koknbul]

There's no point acquiring new skills when you can't do anything with the ones you claim

I'm quite happy with my skill set & my level of mastery of the ones I have, but like always I'm open to learning & acquiring new ones.

If there is no point as you state !
Then why bother in the 1st instance pointing it out ?

 

[Pickman's model]

I'm quite happy with my skill set & my level of mastery of the ones I have

then you're the only one who is

 

[Koknbul]

then you're the only one who is

Obviously your not happy with it though
And you have no advice!
But you don't hesitate to point it out & mock me

I think someone got out of the wrong side of bed today ?

 

[Pickman's model]

Obviously your not happy with it though
And you have no advice!
But you don't hesitate to point it out & mock me

I think someone got out of the wrong side of bed today ?

oh i have plenty of advice but i don't see the point giving it gratis to people without the wherewithal to act on it

 

[Koknbul]

oh i have plenty of advice but i don't see the point giving it gratis to people without the wherewithal to act on it

So you want me to be less Liberal with my thoughts ?

 

[Pickman's model]

So you want me to be less Liberal with my thoughts ?

i think you'd best be served by spending a few months reading and not posting

 

[Koknbul]

i think you'd best be served by spending a few months reading and not posting

A few months of reading, I can do that!!
So no posting until the new year

If you really think it's a good idea I'll go for it ?

 

[Pickman's model]

A few months of reading, I can do that!!
So no posting until the new year

If you really think it's a good idea I'll go for it?

you don't have anything to lose so why not give it a go? maybe till the end of january

 

[Koknbul]

you don't have anything to lose so why not give it a go? maybe till the end of january

I'll give it a go, it's nice to be wanted !
Even if it is to shut up !

 

[ViolentPanda]

The point is we need system change, not better individuals. The problems are systemic.

Change the system, & community and individual change can follow.

 

[8ball]

Change the system, & community and individual change can follow.

And if not, we have a lot of bullets.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And if not, we have a lot of bullets.

Note I said "can", & not "will" follow. People have agency, & if they don't want to exercise it, well THEN we have bullets!