Leytonstone tube station "terrorist incident"?

[Batboy]

How could you a) possibly 'know this'? and b) why would you believe it?

As comforting as some may find it, it's pure propaganda pish. All the evidence point to the leaders of ISIS/ISIL being ideologically motivated.

I know this because I am not naive and it's in no way comforting for me to think this.

Money and power is always present somewhere and the extent of wealth taken is subjective (Even Pol Pot and his cronies were better off than the masses, they didn't starve, his surviving daughter had a nice European style wedding last year), the 2 go hand in hand, the politics and ideology often become the sideshow and the vehicle for the power and wealth grab.

What evidence points to this absolute pure ideological motivation you refer to of ISIS? Why would you believe that? Do you honestly believe that this organisation ISIS/ISIL are not trading billions of dollars of oil and it's leaders are not syphoning some off for themselves and their families? I really don't buy that.

Where did Russia's ogliarchs come from? Ex communist KGB in the main. What's happened to China's Communist ideal... why are there so many communist officials who are now billionaires?

Go look at Islamist leaning Erdogan's billions and how it got it. History is littered with the corruption and greed that such power brings, its a human gene, we can't help ourselves. There is no such thing as pure equal political or religious utopia because human greed will always work it's way in, It may start from a point of ideology... but it doesn't take long for that to be corrupted.

Just my cynical view of course

 

[Batboy]

Not sure about that. Most foreign jihadi recruits are educated and not from particularly poor backgrounds, and the people in Paris restaurants not the most impoverished either ?

Paris is an exception and a relatively new development. The majority of suicide bombings are in poor markets whether in Africa, Afghanistan or the Middle East. It is the poor that suffer the most despite Paris.

The education background of Jihadists is difficult to assess as I don't think they have an entrance exam to join. But suffice to say educated people are joining up (Especially those from Europe)... but these are mainly young people who combine ideology, their moral thinking of revenge and a warped sense of adventure. Whenever I see these recruits I think of the First World war for some reason and the willingness of the young to sign up to fight for king and country and those that didn't being shamed, there is I believe a similar mindset working.

 

[Batboy]

Saying most suicide bombers are in one of three categories really tells us fuck all about why people become suicide bombers, or how we might prevent them so becoming, especially as most people on drugs, most people suffering a mental condition and most people in a disenfranchised angry state don't become suicide bombers.

Plus, this is not an example of suicide bombing, it's an apparently random attack where the attacker shouted something about Syria. There is, as yet, absolutely no evidence that anyone has manipulated the attacker to go and kill others.

I have never said the Leytonstone attacker was a terrorist or manipulated directly by others. Looking at the way he meekly gave up he clearly didn't have suicide on his mind otherwise he could have simply gone up onto the platform and pulled a load of people in front of a train with him. I believe the guy to be unhinged and a cunt. I do not and will not classify him as a terrorist. If we do we feed the problem.

The three elements I mentioned are the core parts, you just need to weave the religious, political and tribal aspect in with this. Madness manifests in different ways, mental health is a myriad of conditions, emotions and feelings. Most people with mental health issues would not kill someone. Most people with mental health issues are fundamentally good people, some are not good people... same as in with those without mental health issues.

Being high on drugs or alcohol will make you make stupid decisions or become irrational, angry or agitated, but in general will not drive you to kill someone. Being disenfranchised will make you angry, resentful and more likely to seek solace in drugs or alcohol. In most cases it won't make you go and kill someone. In extreme cases it is a stepping stone to killing someone else or taking your own life,

We will never stop people becoming suicide bombers, murderers or horrible people. We might be able to make less people go down this route, but sadly I reckon we are centuries away from that happening. We have been on this planet a long time and we are still killing each other and we are far more complex now..

 

[frogwoman]

Last time I read Dabiq (the glossy ISIS mag) .

Here's a quote from the cover story of the commemorative collectors edition celebrating the Paris attacks:

'Whoever was shocked and awed must comprehend. The Muslims today have a loud, thundering statement, and possess heavy boots. They have a statement that will cause the world to hear and understand the meaning of terrorism, and boots that will trample the idol of nationalism, destroy the idol of democracy, and uncover its deviant nature” . etc and on.

View attachment 80549

Bloody hell 'just terror' they spend a lot of time and effort putting that rag together dont they? Its the sort of thing you can imagine finding a copy of in a dentists waiting room.

 

[bimble]

The three elements I mentioned are the core parts, you just need to weave the religious, political and tribal aspect in with this. Madness manifests in different ways..

if you have time & haven't read it you might find this interesting.
RADICALIZATION IS NOT SO SIMPLE

It does kind of directly contradict your list of primary 3 causes/ risk factors (but it focusses on foreign recruits only).

"His database suggested, to the contrary, that terrorists are among the ‘best and brightest’ from ‘caring, middle class families’ who ‘can speak, four, five, six languages’, and ‘three-quarters of whom were ‘professionals or semi-professionals’, ‘engineers, architects… scientists.’'

 

[bimble]

Bloody hell 'just terror' they spend a lot of time and effort putting that rag together dont they? Its the sort of thing you can imagine finding a copy of in a dentists waiting room.

I know! "Just Terror", it's like a tagline for a minimalist luxury jihadi aftershave or something

 

[frogwoman]

Last time I read Dabiq (the glossy ISIS mag) .

Here's a quote from the cover story of the commemorative collectors edition celebrating the Paris attacks:

'Whoever was shocked and awed must comprehend. The Muslims today have a loud, thundering statement, and possess heavy boots. They have a statement that will cause the world to hear and understand the meaning of terrorism, and boots that will trample the idol of nationalism, destroy the idol of democracy, and uncover its deviant nature” . etc and on.

I doubt this leytonstone guy will have his 15 mins of fame in dabiq magazine somehow

 

[bimble]

I doubt this leytonstone guy will have his 15 mins of fame in dabiq magazine somehow

No, he's just an embarrassment all round.

 

[rekil]

I doubt this leytonstone guy will have his 15 mins of fame in dabiq magazine somehow

"You've let yourself down and you've let the caliphate down."

 

[frogwoman]

I mean wtf would they say? 'The lion of leytonstone might have heeded the call to 'drop the knife you fool' but we never will!'

 

[bimble]

I mean wtf would they say? 'The lion of leytonstone might have heeded the call to 'drop the knife you fool' but we never will!'

Maybe that's exactly what we need, loads of laughably crap total failures (but the kind who don't actually get to knife anyone in the neck).

 

[frogwoman]

'You can call one man a stupid idiot but you won't be saying that when the black flag is flying over leytonstone station, who will be tbe stupid idiot then?'

 

[rekil]

I mean wtf would they say? 'The lion of leytonstone might have heeded the call to 'drop the knife you fool' but we never will!'

#YOUAINTNOMUSLIMBRUV on page 12

 

[frogwoman]

'Taser, Taser, Taser: the ignorant cry of the kuffar! When the lions of jihad have taken over Leytonstone tube station nobody will ever say we are stupid again'

 

[bimble]

A stabbing at Leytonstone is being treated as a terrorist incident.
ETA is some nutter with a knife really a terrorist incident or just a nutter with a knife? Don't know the whole story yet so too early to tell.

You called it in post number 1. Maybe we can have some " "s in the title ?

 

[bimble]

'Taser, Taser, Taser: the ignorant cry of the kuffar! When the lions of jihad have taken over Leytonstone tube station nobody will ever say we are stupid again'

Seriously, they must hate this sort of thing, all that video of him bounding about like a loon and then letting himself be handcuffed, people taking the piss. It's a shame that dressing up in a balaclava and doing clown terrorism would probably be a risky day out.

 

[rekil]

It'll probably make the "what NOT to do" section of their training video.

 

[bimble]

 

[BigMoaner]

i watch four lions last night again, such a great, clever film.

 

[Batboy]

if you have time & haven't read it you might find this interesting.
RADICALIZATION IS NOT SO SIMPLE

It does kind of directly contradict your list of primary 3 causes/ risk factors (but it focusses on foreign recruits only).

"His database suggested, to the contrary, that terrorists are among the ‘best and brightest’ from ‘caring, middle class families’ who ‘can speak, four, five, six languages’, and ‘three-quarters of whom were ‘professionals or semi-professionals’, ‘engineers, architects… scientists.’'

Did read it, interesting. Jihadists and suicide bombers I would say are different things. The three elements I suggested were more for suicide bombers, they are more often the truly broken screwed up people. I also acknowledged the education aspect as being more for those brought up in the west. On the jihadists I also brought in the analogy of WW1 and the adventure aspect or as the writer of the piece you suggested creating a whole new world for them to live in. I would be interested if there were any details of the ages of Jihadists, many look quite young.

Conviction of belief is a very strong foundation to do things including the awful acts of killing people. I find that difficult to get my head around because aside from following a crap football team I have no convictions whatsoever aside from believing in Good (My Atheist answer when I speak to religious people... just an 'O' separates us).

Religion involves a lot of indoctrination. Cults do this. ISIS is often cited as a death cult. Hypnotherapy shows just how easy the mind can be swayed. The jihadists heads are swayed by conviction of belief and a sense of adventure if they happen to have the other three elements introduced to them then they two slip into suicide bomber mode. There is a thin line I would suggest between extreme religious belief and madness.

 

[frogwoman]

Seriously, they must hate this sort of thing, all that video of him bounding about like a loon and then letting himself be handcuffed, people taking the piss. It's a shame that dressing up in a balaclava and doing clown terrorism would probably be a risky day out.

Isnt saying #youaintnomuslimbruv declaring takfir ie saying their well, not a muslim? They could use it to attack everyone who call them extremist and takfiri etc

 

[bimble]

i watch four lions last night again, such a great, clever film.

Better than bombs, for the intended purpose.

 

[BigMoaner]

Better than bombs, for the intended purpose.

it's a satirical masterpiece.

on one hand it is it treats the characters with empathy, understanding, is broad, exploratory, humanising

on the other hand it mocks the characters, rips the piss out of them, makes them into characters of ridicule rather than fear.

incredible skilled bit of film making, imo.

 

[bimble]

But (bit seriously) this is why I think the stupid teenaged twits who have gone out there & now want to come back should be allowed to return, instead of getting to be martyrs (shot for desertion or whatever):
They should be flown back and interviewed in depth about what it was really like out there, how there was no toilet paper and they had to wipe their arses with stones, how they had to kill people they had no problem with, and forced to tour schools repeating their pathetic stories forever.

 

[Tony_LeaS]

it's a satirical masterpiece.

on one hand it is it treats the characters with empathy, understanding, is broad, exploratory, humanising

on the other hand it mocks the characters, rips the piss out of them, makes them into characters of ridicule rather than fear.

incredible skilled bit of film making, imo.

Its smart really, obviously a lot of people look at it for what it is, mock style Channel 4 humour, but at the same time its their way of saying a good old fuck you.

As for Leytonstone, I dont consider it a terrorist incident to the extent that the media are playing it out to be.

 

[BigMoaner]

i have heard that ISIS get the incomers to burn their passports, not that that's insurmountable in regards returning.

i have no desire to see people who believe in what isis are doing return, tbh.

 

[bimble]

i have no desire to see people who believe in what isis are doing return, tbh.

I know, not an attractive idea. This got a lot of debate over on the Paris thread a while back but in support of the idea there's this for instance. I'm convinced by it anyway.
http://icsr.info/wp-content/uploads...The-Narratives-of-Islamic-State-Defectors.pdf

 

[frogwoman]

Its kind of a shame there aren't more books, movies etc exploring this subject in fiction.

 

[bimble]

Its kind of a shame there aren't more books, movies etc exploring this subject in fiction.

Yep, and more jokes about it would be good too.

 

[frogwoman]

Yep, and more jokes about it would be good too.

Im trying to write a sort of science-fiction story at the mo with ISIS as the bad guys but tbh i doubt i could get it published anywhere