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Vile, disgusting, entitled, predatory man hassles brave woman on unmanned railway station

As other women have said, this shit happens every fucking day. Not to each of us on everyday, but to lots of someones on every day.

As has been said, women will step in more if they have the confidence to do it. And all the people who are saying that it is less risk to do that if you are a woman are right.

But, the men who are saying that intervention means confrontation. I totally understand its harder and males who are doing this to women have issues that are about power and aggression. But doing nothing is a cop out.

You can do all the tactics women do that are not aggressive.. sorry I'm late. Hi, I can't believe it's you, haven't seen you for ages.

Yes, as a man there's a different dynamic from a woman doing it. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't.

Step up
 
Me76 said:
As other women have said, this shit happens every fucking day. Not to each of us on everyday, but to lots of someones on every day.

As has been said, women will step in more if they have the confidence to do it. And all the people who are saying that it is less risk to do that if you are a woman are right.

But, the men who are saying that intervention means confrontation. I totally understand its harder and males who are doing this to women have issues that are about power and aggression. But doing nothing is a cop out.

You can do all the tactics women do that are not aggressive.. sorry I'm late. Hi, I can't believe it's you, haven't seen you for ages.

Yes, as a man there's a different dynamic from a woman doing it. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't.

Step up
Click to expand...

Got into trouble with plod for stepping up, many years back. Not that I wouldn't again, but it does make one wary of getting involved. Sadly.
 
krtek a houby said:
Liked without entirely understanding the term "mandem". Is it an abbreviation for man demanding
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It’s a Jamaican patois word. Or MLE really. So not directly translatable.

Man-them. A crew or group of men. Used to talk about your own crew, or refer to a gang who would, themselves, refer to each other as their own crew

Yootdem is similar, for youngsters. Youth-them


MLE is Multicultural London English.
 
LeytonCatLady said:
From dictionary.com:

Mandem is UK slang for a group of men or people in general, like one's crew, boys, or mates.6 Dec 2018
Click to expand...

story said:
Yes but it’s more nuanced that that too. Wouldn’t you say?

Like any neologism, it was made to refer to something that didn’t have its own word yet.
Click to expand...

Mandem, just means one or more random males you don't know who are there, a bit like some bloke/s?Female version is gyaldem isn't it. Kids, it's yootdem. I guess Jamaican in origin?
 
Thinking about non-confrontational tactics for men to step up and use...

How about standing nearby and not directly engaging either the man or the woman, but instead singing Kumbaya, My Lord loudly?

That specific idea makes me giggle, but I'm generally serious. If you have the confidence, how about being some sort of non-threatening distraction that no-one wants to be around?

Or, if that's a completely stupid idea, start thinking about what you can do.
 
I got stalked for 3 fucking years because I got involved once. I had to move house 5 times. Did that stop me getting involved again? No. Did I wise the fuck up and get more savvy next time I had to get involved? Yes. Am I now reading a thread where my hard won experience is being completely discounted as "its easier for women"? Yep
 
Mation said:
How about standing nearby and not directly engaging either the man or the woman, but instead singing Kumbaya, My Lord loudly?
Click to expand...

:D

I'll always get involved if I see a woman getting hassled but I have been told to 'fuck off and mind your own business' by a woman on whose behalf I intervened!

I once stopped for some booze in a cab on the way home from the pub and there was a young woman getting some shit in the shop from a couple of Herberts. The shopkeeper wasn't interested and she actually asked me for help so I took her home in the cab. That could have gone tits-up if the lads had decided to get silly but they just gobbed-off at us.

I've also shouted at a bloke who squared-up to a woman at a bus stop and he ran away; and also had a woman ask if she could sit next to me on a nearly empty tube.

I haven't witnessed much more but wouldn't think twice about helping out.
 
muscovyduck said:
People saying it's less risky for women to get involved just aren't taking violence against women as seriously as they do violence against men. For fuck sake
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There never is a once size fits all scenario to any given situation to to the diversity of humanity.

My advice for anyone witnessing a potential crime on the rail network is to first and foremost protect yourself whilst contacting the British Transport Police.

Tel 0800 40 50 40
Text 61016
999 for an emergency
See it, Say it, Sort it.

I do not deny that there are men who are perfectly happy to commit acts of violence against women.

I also know quite a lot about the psychology of street fighting.
People saying that if a man steps into conflict it can and often does escalate the conflict are not wrong.
I can understand the reluctance this leads to. Not everyone is a hero prepared to put their life on the line for a stranger.
www.standard.co.uk

Have-a-go hero killed by muggers was to see his young son for the

The wife of the have-a-go hero who was knifed to death by muggers today spoke for the first time about her devastation at losing her husband.
www.standard.co.uk www.standard.co.uk

BBC News - Change of heart on 'have-a-go heroes'?

news.bbc.co.uk news.bbc.co.uk

I’ve seen it in real life more then few times (thankfully no knives involved in any of the occasions but that was then and not today’s knife culture). I myself have landed in a mass brawl because a friend went to rescue a female friend of his, which triggered a 6 on 6 street brawl.
If you choose not to believe me or others you can Google plenty of video examples.

For those of you who wish to know more about combat psychology I highly recommend searching out Budo Brothers Reality Check by Jay Cooper.
 
Spymaster said:
but I have been told to 'fuck off and mind your own business' by a woman on whose behalf I intervened!
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This has happened to me too. I think it was her pimp. He had a right go at me too and the pair of them threatened to call the cops on me lol.

I’ve also been warned or asked not to intervene by the woman’s act of suddenly going quiet and standing beside the bloke, and a woman who almost secretly shook her head at me. In those situations I interpreted it that my intervening would make it worse for her.

These were very unlikely to be the predatory man approaching a woman he didn’t know. Much more likely to be a man known to the woman and probably an ongoing abusive situation.
 
RubyToogood said:
Just to toss a grenade in here, it's also a coded way of saying that they were black.
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That’s true.

It’s is probably exclusively used to refer to Black people, and specifically people from an Afrocaribbean background. It’s a term they use themselves and applying it to white kids would be some kind of cultural appropriation.

When I said it has nuances that can’t be translated.... like, I wouldn’t expect a bunch of kids coming out of Brixton College to be described as yootdem but if someone said they’d seen yootdem outside Brixton Tube it would give me an idea about the behaviour and attitude of those kids.

It’s tricky. Terms like this can become dog whistles or be used with prejudice, but they can also be very specific nuanced words that exist because they’re necessary.


IMO pinkmonkey wasn’t using the word inappropriately
 
story said:
That’s true.

It’s is probably exclusively used to refer to Black people, and specifically people from an Afrocaribbean background. It’s a term they use themselves and applying it to white kids would be some kind of cultural appropriation.

When I said it has nuances that can’t be translated.... like, I wouldn’t expect a bunch of kids coming out of Brixton College to be described as yootdem but if someone said they’d seen yootdem outside Brixton Tube it would give me an idea about the behaviour and attitude of those kids.

It’s tricky. Terms like this can become dog whistles or be used with prejudice, but they can also be very specific nuanced words that exist because they’re necessary.


IMO pinkmonkey wasn’t using the word inappropriately
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I'd take mandem to indicate how people, who would use the term to describe themselves, were behaving, rather than to allude to their race, even though most mandem are black. Well. Depending on who said it, but I'd trust pinkmonkey on this. (Though I'm guessing it wasn't an accusation, rather than general info.)
 
story said:
That’s true.

It’s is probably exclusively used to refer to Black people, and specifically people from an Afrocaribbean background. It’s a term they use themselves and applying it to white kids would be some kind of cultural appropriation.

When I said it has nuances that can’t be translated.... like, I wouldn’t expect a bunch of kids coming out of Brixton College to be described as yootdem but if someone said they’d seen yootdem outside Brixton Tube it would give me an idea about the behaviour and attitude of those kids.

It’s tricky. Terms like this can become dog whistles or be used with prejudice, but they can also be very specific nuanced words that exist because they’re necessary.


IMO pinkmonkey wasn’t using the word inappropriately
Click to expand...
Nope. It’s rooted in Black culture but is recognised as a vernacular in urban culture now.
 
Years back one of my house mates intervened when someone on the same street as us was pulling a woman by her hair into his property and asked her if she was alright. She claimed she was and lived there.
Next day the partner and mates stormed into out house ranting and raving about how they were going to burn us out. Police were called to get them out and police agreed to increase patrols. Two days later neighbour came back, apologised, shook our hands and claimed he would have done exactly the same (i.e intervened) in the circumstances...
We didn't exactly invite them for a BBQ afterwards but nodding terms were re- engaged.
 
To reiterate what some others have alluded to. Mandem, though with it's roots in Jamaican culture, is by no means related to 'exclusively black'. Grime and particularly drill have popularized the word and I assure you it is related to 'gangs', whether they be criminal gangs or just a gang of mates. Several of my pupils use it, and they are not black.

And if anyone tried to tell them it was 'cultural appropriation' they would rightly tell you to go fuck yourself.
 
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I’m not saying you’re wrong but I’d add that if for instance a bunch of Chelsea lads were to refer to themselves as mandem they might be wearing someone else’s clothes for show.



This is interesting and probably necessary, but not really related to the topic under discussion.
 
kenny g said:
Years back one of my house mates intervened when someone on the same street as us was pulling a woman by her hair into his property and asked her if she was alright. She claimed she was and lived there.
Next day the partner and mates stormed into out house ranting and raving about how they were going to burn us out. Police were called to get them out and police agreed to increase patrols. Two days later neighbour came back, apologised, shook our hands and claimed he would have done exactly the same (i.e intervened) in the circumstances...
We didn't exactly invite them for a BBQ afterwards but nodding terms were re- engaged.
Click to expand...

This is why the home office brought in the zero tolerance stuff a while back. Far too often, a woman would phone the cops when she was being assaulted at home, then the bloke would calm down and do the appeasing stuff so when the cops turned up she’d turn them away.

Then the next day they’d be called back for a far more serious crime or even murder. Now, if someone rings to report domestic abuse of any kind at all, they will always arrest and hold him overnight. Whether they charge him or not depends on what statement they get from the woman, neighbours maybe too.

The problem there is that the thing that occasioned the phone call is often not enough to get a conviction so the CPS refuse to charge. So he’s released. And the women is now in increased danger from his recriminations and further fury. So she doesn’t phone the next time, or she tells the neighbours not to phone.


I talked with a friend the other day who had called the police after weeks of hearing his neighbour getting abused. It was messy for a while but she eventually got rid of him (he was never charged and never did time). My mate said he felt really conflicted because she’d not asked him to ring, and it made things worse for a while. Bloke was always nice and friendly to my mate and then he’d go inside and shout at his missus, and worse.

Anyway the woman talked to my mate once it was over and apologised for the fuss and said thank you. It was one of the things that contributed to getting shot of the abuser. My mate was upset that she’d apologised, said he felt like he needed to apologise to her. He also said “I didn’t know what to do. But that was no solution was it cos she was the one dealing with it and all I had to deal with was hearing it through the wall.”

Not knowing what to do isn’t a good reason to do nothing.


It‘s a horrible fucking mess, the whole bullshit lot of it. There’s no easy answer, no single answer to “what should I do”.
 
planetgeli said:
To reiterate what some others have alluded to. Mandem, though with it's roots in Jamaican culture, is by no means related to 'exclusively black'. Grime and particularly drill have popularized the word and I assure you it is related to 'gangs', whether they be criminal gangs or just a gang of mates. Several of my pupils use it, and they are not black.

And if anyone tried to tell them it was 'cultural appropriation' they would rightly tell you to go fuck yourself.
Click to expand...

It's fascinating how language constantly evolves and yet some still get very irate about it.
 
I just did the Suzy Lamplugh Trust training, which is an hour long. It's a Zoom session, but manages to be quite interactive with polls and the chat. It was also well presented and quite upbeat about what you can do, whilst obviously dealing with awful behaviour. I doubt much of it would be that new to the female posters who have posted on this thread, but still very useful. It was based around the 5 Ds -

Distract (as touched on upthread, 'oh hi, how's your mum'')
Delegate (e.g. speaking to the bus driver)
Document (usually phone recording)
Delay (speaking to a victim immediately afterwards - 'do you want me to sit with you' etc)
Direct interventions

What I took away from it was the possibility of using the first 4, particularly the first and there were useful suggestions as to what you might do to distract. I think I'd always thought that intervening would (and have a couple of times) inevitably tend towards something direct. Not so much some macho physical intervention, but at least a direct engagement with the perp - 'seriously mate, that's not cool, you've got to stop that' type of thing'. Always been vaguely aware there were other less direct things you could do which might be more effective, but the training firmed that up. So, for any men who might be thinking about the training, that could be a key point.
 
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Wilf said:
I just did the Suzy Lamplugh Trust training, which is an hour long. It's a Zoom session, but manages to be quite interactive with polls and the chat. It was also well presented and quite upbeat about what you can do, whilst obviously dealing with awful behaviour. I doubt much of it would be that new to the female posters who have posted on this thread, but still very useful. It was based around the 5 Ds -

Distract (as touched on upthread, 'oh hi, how's your mum'')
Delegate (e.g. speaking to the bus driver)
Document (usually phone recording)
Delay (speaking to a victim immediately afterwards - 'do you want me to sit with you' etc)
Direct interventions

What I took away from it was the possibility of using the first 4, particularly the first and there were useful suggestions as to what you might do to distract. I think I'd always thought that intervening would (and have a couple of times) inevitably tend towards something direct. Not so much some macho physical intervention, but at least a direct engagement with the perp - 'seriously mate, that's not cool, you've got to stop that' type of thing'. Always been vaguely aware there were other less direct things you could do which might be more effective, but the training firmed that up. So, for any men who might be thinking about the training, that could be a key point.
Click to expand...
Just managing to gather my thoughts a bit more, I think I'm trying to say you can end up feeling you have to make some kind of direct intervention in a situation. That might come out of a failure of imagination, not necessarily some kind of macho nonsense. It's good to do a training like this or to read the contributions on this thread because they gives you a series of ready made low key or subtle interventions you could have ready. There's nothing worse than seeing something awful unfolding and feeling you just don't know what to do.
 
Wilf said:
I just did the Suzy Lamplugh Trust training, which is an hour long. It's a Zoom session, but manages to be quite interactive with polls and the chat. It was also well presented and quite upbeat about what you can do, whilst obviously dealing with awful behaviour. I doubt much of it would be that new to the female posters who have posted on this thread, but still very useful. It was based around the 5 Ds -

Distract (as touched on upthread, 'oh hi, how's your mum'')
Delegate (e.g. speaking to the bus driver)
Document (usually phone recording)
Delay (speaking to a victim immediately afterwards - 'do you want me to sit with you' etc)
Direct interventions

What I took away from it was the possibility of using the first 4, particularly the first and there were useful suggestions as to what you might do to distract. I think I'd always thought that intervening would (and have a couple of times) inevitably tend towards something direct. Not so much some macho physical intervention, but at least a direct engagement with the perp - 'seriously mate, that's not cool, you've got to stop that' type of thing'. Always been vaguely aware there were other less direct things you could do which might be more effective, but the training firmed that up. So, for any men who might be thinking about the training, that could be a key point.
Click to expand...
Please share with all your male friends. We need more people, but especially men, to know about this stuff.
 
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