Lampedusa boat disaster: Divers recover more bodies

[campanula]

I guess you have to ask yourself some serious questions along the lines of would you share your house with another refugee family...and I am horribly afraid that when reduced down to raw ultimatums, the answer would be no.
Because whilst there are absolute reasons for this unjust and dysfunctional situation when regarded in macro-economic terms, when translated into the real-life practice of showing solidarity to people we neither know nor care about (at least in any solid and tangible way other than some abstract feeling of injustice). I can see no easy answers at all....

On these boards, there has always been an instinctive sympathy for those less well off, those suffering disability and impairment - sympathy which can usefully be routed towards activism and making an attempt to seek a better idea of social justice than what currently exists...but the difficult part is to translate these ideas into workable solutions...which frequently evade us when faced with the hard facts of, say, a large travelling community rocking up at the end of your street (to pick an immediately contentious issue)....or millions of displaced refugees.

 

[campanula]

Thinking of the mass evacuation of city children during WW2 and the displacement arising from MOD appropriations of land and property, there are precedents for this sort of thing...but politically, there remains a horrid feeling that the ruling elites, the beneficiaries of brutal trade set-ups and massive capitalist exploitation, would not be the ones displaced from their positions, but the working classes, as usual, would bear the brunt of this sort of displacement. Whilst, in theory, we should, and could make common cause with other victims of exploitation and trauma, whether we do so without huge upheaval remains to be seen. I am not entirely hopeful that a sense of injustice actually reveals a core of sacrifice and compassion for people who are not those within our own internal social and emotional geographies.

 

[likesfish]

Exactly At the moment I'm up shit creek without a paddle is still better off than a refugee.
Wouldnt exactly rejoice at my estate having a thousand or so africans dumped here zero in common with them.
" we are all in this together springs to mind" the people asking sacrifices and understanding are not the people whose daughters are going to be called whores for going to the shop alone or not wearing a tent etc etc

 

[Casually Red]

Exactly. What those who complain about migration forget is that all animals migrate, and whether we like it or not, we are animals. If there is no food or shelter, then we migrate to find those things. Stopping migration is like stopping people from having sex: it ain't gonna happen.

You're neglecting the flip side of this animal business , which is what happens when one herd of animals stray into another set of animals patch and start competing for resources . Youre talking about millions here .Don't be surprised then when the herd reverts to type and starts getting all Darwinian . Animals aren't always very nice . They can be quite cruel and vicious when they perceive their interests being threatened, rightly or wrongly . We need only look to what's going on in south Africa at the minute to see what happens . The army has been deployed on the streets . That's patently not racism , it's mass migration and competition for resources in a society were appeals for human decency are falling on deaf ears because of a decrepit left .

The European left are also simply incapable of standing up to the inevitable political and social repercussions of what's coming down the line .

 

[Casually Red]

Rubbish, they go to where there's food. I suppose if you faced similar circumstances, you'd stay and die. Perhaps your survival instinct is non-existent?

And what happens when he meets another bear sherlock ? Does the other bear say " here mate..come in out of the cold and share my nice warm cave . And let's share this nice badger I'm after catching "

Does he feck .

 

[treelover]

Exactly. What those who complain about migration forget is that all animals migrate, and whether we like it or not, we are animals. If there is no food or shelter, then we migrate to find those things. Stopping migration is like stopping people from having sex: it ain't gonna happen.

TINA

 

[Casually Red]

Boundaries and borders are largely artificial anyway.

Even jack Russell's piss on lamp posts as a warning to other jack Russell's . Cats do it, lions , tigers, all sorts of animals . It means this is my turf . If humans are animals then that's what borders are about too .

There'll be a massive social reaction to what you're suggesting , a very negative one thats happening already , and no left wing roup in northern Europe is even remotely equipped to address it .

 

[Spymaster]

Let me guess, the answer is to remove all the borders and let everyone live wherever they want to?

 

[treelover]

The Guardians seem to be devoting its whole site nearly to what are basically calls for open borders, despite it having probably having no support more than a few leftists, liberals, and libertarians of left and right, some of the contributions are very shrill and accusatory and demanding. It is a truly awful and unprecedented situation for which as C/R notes, the West and institutions like the IMF, must take major blame, but its not the whole story: migration on the scale some are proposing here, millions of poor often uneducated, (though many are university educated), people from SSA would overwhelm welfare states and inflame tensions across the EU, especially if many were 'dispersed' to Eastern Europe, Oban for instance, has stated, "Hungary is not a immigrant country" (though of course it is a emigrant one)

 

[treelover]

Let me guess, the answer is to remove all the borders and let everyone live wherever they want to?

OB is a very minority position and doesn't serve any purpose more than a self righteous aura, it is not going to happen.

 

[Casually Red]

Let me guess, the answer is to remove all the borders and let everyone live wherever they want to?

Of course . That'll show farage .

 

[Spymaster]

OB is a very minority position ...

Not on these boards.

 

[Casually Red]

The Guardian seem to be devoting its whole site nearly to what are basically calls for open borders, despite it having probably having no support more than a few leftists, liberals, and libertarians of left and right, some of the contributions are shrill and accusatory and demanding. It is a truly awful and unprecedented situation for which as C/R notes, the West and institutions like the IMF, must take major blame, but its not the whole story: migration on the scale some are proposing here, millions of poor often uneducated, (though many are university educated), people from SSA would overwhelm welfare states and inflame tensions across the EU, especially if many were 'dispersed' to Eastern Europe, Oban for instance, has stated, "Hungary is not a immigrant country" (though of course it is a emigrant one)

We'd see unabashed fascism taking power in those countries in a heartbeat . And more dead migrants . And more ineffectual handwringing about how awful it is .

 

[Treacle Toes]

Are you sure? Not everyone is leaving, maybe you would have better odds joining up with one of the powerful groups and keeping your head down

Eh?

 

[WoodElf]

The European left are also simply incapable of standing up to the inevitable political and social repercussions of what's coming down the line .

Likewise the African Left. These are African workers who are dying on these dinghies, surely our Southern comrades are going to be more equipped to deal with these problems than the EU who the Euro left seem to be expecting to do something?

 

[nino_savatte]

TINA

In your case, it's OBsession.

 

[treelover]

Nah, just one of them.

 

[nino_savatte]

Not much survival instinct involved in a lot of the boats you see on the news!

You're not doing yourself any favours with that kind of remark.

 

[nino_savatte]

Nah, just one of them.

Ever since I've been posting on Urban, you've always been obsessed with immigration and shouting "open borders" at anyone who disagrees with you. There's a hidden discourse to all of this and it's quite an unpleasant one.

Next you'll be telling refugees and immigrants not to have sex and to breathe only during certain times of the day.

 

[nino_savatte]

But again, what is your solution beyond righteous indignation? We are where we are, we all know where the problems have come about and who caused them, but this is it now. Do you think Europe (and by Europe I mean a handful of Northern European states) should just re-home all migrants and refugees? This is what you appear to be suggesting, correct me if I'm wrong.

Let me ask you a question: what is your solution?

Here's another question: if you were faced with starvation and imminent death, would you stay where you are and die? How strong is your survival instinct?

 

[nino_savatte]

Even jack Russell's piss on lamp posts as a warning to other jack Russell's . Cats do it, lions , tigers, all sorts of animals . It means this is my turf . If humans are animals then that's what borders are about too .

There'll be a massive social reaction to what you're suggesting , a very negative one thats happening already , and no left wing roup in northern Europe is even remotely equipped to address it .

Wtf are you talking about?

 

[nino_savatte]

And what happens when he meets another bear sherlock ? Does the other bear say " here mate..come in out of the cold and share my nice warm cave . And let's share this nice badger I'm after catching "

Does he feck .

Drivel

 

[nino_savatte]

The Guardians seem to be devoting its whole site nearly to what are basically calls for open borders, despite it having probably having no support more than a few leftists, liberals, and libertarians of left and right, some of the contributions are very shrill and accusatory and demanding. It is a truly awful and unprecedented situation for which as C/R notes, the West and institutions like the IMF, must take major blame, but its not the whole story: migration on the scale some are proposing here, millions of poor often uneducated, (though many are university educated), people from SSA would overwhelm welfare states and inflame tensions across the EU, especially if many were 'dispersed' to Eastern Europe, Oban for instance, has stated, "Hungary is not a immigrant country" (though of course it is a emigrant one)

You're just oozing with sympathy, aren't you? Have you adopted the Hopkins solution to the refugee problem or is it the case that you always approach this issue with a broad brush?

 

[WoodElf]

Difficult to see, always in motion is the future

 

[FridgeMagnet]

 

[Casually Red]

Wtf are you talking about?

The fact that this animal kingdom you're so intent on comparing us to is absolutely full of borders . It's the most natural thing in the world .


And that this talk of a one world no border malarkey , which will never ever happen , is only going to increase support for the far right which is going from strength to strength in direct relation to immigration . At a time when the intersectionist ridden mostly bourgeois left in Europe is possibly at its most disconnected , disorganised and disreputable point in its entire history . And completely incapable of containing them or putting up a convincing argument against them . It's no help to anyone .

 

[Casually Red]

Likewise the African Left. These are African workers who are dying on these dinghies, surely our Southern comrades are going to be more equipped to deal with these problems than the EU who the Euro left seem to be expecting to do something?

Please fuck off

 

[Casually Red]

Not on these boards.

There's a great song on YouTube called muriburiland . This no borders stuff should have it as its theme tune .

 

[campanula]

East Anglia has struggled to assimilate 300,000 Eastern Europeans (I am always astounded to hear the oft repeated statement that support for UKIP arises in places which has experienced the least immigration - a statement easily refuted in Wisbech, Spalding, Thetford, Yarmouth) so I dread to imagine the potential upheaval created by massive refugee diasporas. Housing, for example. In a capital where demand already outstrips supply (although this is disputed) I fail to see how councils will deal with an influx of many thousands more.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Difficult to see, always in motion is the future