Lampedusa boat disaster: Divers recover more bodies

[Casually Red]

fine, if we're talking about population shift - not individual immigration, but population migration - because a large swathe of Africa is becoming uninhabitable due to climate change and interminable conflict (perhaps not unlike that last seen during the Ice Age, when northern Europe became uninhabitable..), then say so.

saying 'accept them' is fine, however we are realisticly talking about tens of millions of people moving to an area with 500 million people in a fairly short period of time. politically that could be a, err... challenging policy to sell, and these people will need housing, financial support, healthcare - which will also be a somewhat difficult policy to persuade the European public to accept and pay for.

staging a naval blockade of north Africa and destroying the boats/ships/deathtraps on land would be expensive, properly expensive. it would do little for those seeking to get to Europe, however it would reduce the number of those drowned. it would also mean that a good proportion of those looking to get somewhere better than wherever they are might decide that Europe isn't worth the hassle and therefore they wouldn't travel through, or congregate in, Libya.

all of the options are shit options, very shit options.

As if the far right aren't going from strength to strength as it is . Accepting millions more migrants and refugees with open borders is only going to result in Marie le pen and people like that becoming european heads of state...guarantees it . A recipe for disaster all round . Just like when various lefties weren't too arsed...if not openly jubilant..about Libya being bombed ...and the prospect of syria being guttied too..the very simple principle of cause and effect Seems to whoosh over people's heads . A massive political and social crash waiting to happen .

Open borders and refugees welcome...who was consulted on that policy ? .. Makes for a great slogan within an ineffectual micro bubble that nobody supports . It's unicorn stuff ..infantile . Real life is a great deal more problematic . Anyone even remotely thinking it through can see the hard right and the far right taking real power should it ever come to pass .

 

[coley]

fine, if we're talking about population shift - not individual immigration, but population migration - because a large swathe of Africa is becoming uninhabitable due to climate change and interminable conflict (perhaps not unlike that last seen during the Ice Age, when northern Europe became uninhabitable..), then say so.

saying 'accept them' is fine, however we are realisticly talking about tens of millions of people moving to an area with 500 million people in a fairly short period of time. politically that could be a, err... challenging policy to sell, and these people will need housing, financial support, healthcare - which will also be a somewhat difficult policy to persuade the European public to accept and pay for.

staging a naval blockade of north Africa and destroying the boats/ships/deathtraps on land would be expensive, properly expensive. it would do little for those seeking to get to Europe, however it would reduce the number of those drowned. it would also mean that a good proportion of those looking to get somewhere better than wherever they are might decide that Europe isn't worth the hassle and therefore they wouldn't travel through, or congregate in, Libya.

all of the options are shit options, very shit options.

Aye, the options suggested on here are Shyte, no question, but those denouncing the options seem a wee bit short on viable alternatives?

 

[coley]

Re: Charles Taylor. Other readers may think that this is CR being a loon again, but the story about CT being helped escape from the pen in the states is apparently for real.

CR often comes across as sensible and informative, but then for some reason loses the plot, could it be the repetitive needling?

 

[Casually Red]

They reckon the death toll in the med this year could get to 30,000 . This has to be stopped and right away too .

Seems that this latest boat was actually right alongside a rescue ship . Either the captain trafficker crashed into it or he swerved so tightly the people inside packed like sardines shifted ...human cargo ..and capsized it . All locked below decks so absolutely zero chance of survival .

Scum like that need put out of business right away .

 

[kebabking]

Aye, the options suggested on here are Shyte, no question, but those denouncing the options seem a wee bit short on viable alternatives?

sadly its what passes for our political discourse - you don't need to present a viable, thought-through plan, you just need to be shrill.

if we don't want tens of millions of African migrants becoming part of Europe (i would, in their position, so i'm not blaming them at all..), and we don't want to see pictures on the tv of European navies disgorging rescued/intercepted attempted migrants out of ships onto Libyan beaches, then we have few options left - and they tend to be 'upstream' and look a lot like imperialism/colonialism/nation-building/call-it-whatever-the-hell-you-like.

 

[Casually Red]

Re: Charles Taylor. Other readers may think that this is CR being a loon again, but the story about CT being helped escape from the pen in the states is apparently for real.

He was an asset of both the CIA and the dia ...defence intelligence agency..from the early 1980s onwards . They've admitted it now after a foia request from the Boston globe . but don't admit what he was actually doing for them . That remains classified unsurprisingly .

His escape from us custody and ability to remain at large, using his own passport to exit through Mexico , stretches credulity at their non involvement in the escape . And that he as they admit began working for them in Africa immediately after it is a coincidence too many .

 

[Casually Red]

sadly its what passes for our political discourse - you don't need to present a viable, thought-through plan, you just need to be shrill.

if we don't want tens of millions of African migrants becoming part of Europe (i would, in their position, so i'm not blaming them at all..), and we don't want to see pictures on the tv of European navies disgorging rescued/intercepted attempted migrants out of ships onto Libyan beaches, then we have few options left - and they tend to be 'upstream' and look a lot like imperialism/colonialism/nation-building/call-it-whatever-the-hell-you-like.

I'd argue that's what's got us ...sorry..the refugees..into this mess in the first place . We've already seen what western nation building and democracy promotion has done to Libya , Iraq and Syria . They don't need any more of it IMHO .

For starters many African governments are expressly forbidden to provide social welfare or health programmes for their own citizens by the IMF . That is utterly fucked . And just the tip of the iceberg . Western powers want Africa to do one thing and one thing alone...provide raw materials for western markets, and indeed African markets with them buying their stuff back from us . Theyre not permitted engage in the protection of their own economic interests either... The free market must prevail and they have to compete at a massive disadvantage . Its a massive dirty racket . And like i said any african challenging it will wind up dead .

That's whats at the root of the entire mess . It's us who need to change things in our own back yard . That's what determines the economic and social situation on the ground across Africa . Our western stranglehold over them .

 

[coley]

sadly its what passes for our political discourse - you don't need to present a viable, thought-through plan, you just need to be shrill.

if we don't want tens of millions of African migrants becoming part of Europe (i would, in their position, so i'm not blaming them at all..), and we don't want to see pictures on the tv of European navies disgorging rescued/intercepted attempted migrants out of ships onto Libyan beaches, then we have few options left - and they tend to be 'upstream' and look a lot like imperialism/colonialism/nation-building/call-it-whatever-the-hell-you-like.

The answer is simple but, uncomfortably, somewhat brutal, but find a North African country,that in exchange for EU largesse, is prepared to accept these people, and in return for this EU largesse, guarantees to provide a decent level of food, housing and medicine for these people.
But most importantly, provides a safe method of escape from the disasters these poor buggers are seeking to escape from.
Aye, I know it seems like shoving the problem elsewhere,
But
Let those who oppose the idea think on how many people are going to be drowned in the next few years?
I would really like to hear of practical alternatives!

 

[Casually Red]

The answer is simple but, uncomfortably, somewhat brutal, but find a North African country,that in exchange for EU largesse, is prepared to accept these people, and in return for this EU largesse, guarantees to provide a decent level of food, housing and medicine for these people.
But most importantly, provides a safe method of escape from the disasters these poor buggers are seeking to escape from.
Aye, I know it seems like shoving the problem elsewhere,
But
Let those who oppose the idea think on how many people are going to be drowned in the next few years?
I would really like to hear of practical alternatives!

The only one prepared to do that and provide employment was Libya . It's been destroyed and there's no other contenders . Tunisia next door...they kept tens of thousands of refugees of all nationalities stuck in Libya right at their border gates rather than let them in . Wouldnt let anyone in until they could prove how they intended getting out of tunisia ASAP . Their own people are one of the major groups trying to get to Europe and theyre happy to have that safety valve . Algeria has been horrifically plagued with jihadists and simply isn't going to accept anything that could create an unknown factor in their society , even the remotest chance of social destabilisation . There's already 150,000 refugees in camps there as it is . Not including the unknown numbers of illegals living in the urban sprawl . Morocco..they even refused to host the African cup because they said they were afraid of Ebola . Not much chance of them making themselves a beacon for sub Saharan Africa no matter how much moneys on the table .

The problem with your suggestion...perfectly laudable as it is.. is that right away you'd create a Calais type situation of massive proportions in a north African country . A region that's socially and ethnically unstable as it is and who have their own fair share of internal refugees from their own conflicts . I honestly can't see any country agreeing to it . Because frankly you're talking about millions of people making an instant beeline for it .

And speaking from the standpoint of coming from a country that's seen it's population not decimated but more than halved due to emigration, coffin ships, famine , conflict, unemployment and all the rest I have an opinion that looks at it from another angle . As has been pointed out by others it's not cheap to hire traffickers . And it takes a lot of guts , resilience and determination to make the journey . What that means in practice though is that Africa's ablest and best ...the people who should be the best hope of turning their countries around...are instead draining out . That's what happened here and s still happening . The people who stay put tend to be the ones who resign themselves to how things are . That's not helping Africa one little bit . That's why I don't doubt it in the slightest when western pro immigration spokespersons talk about the major contributions immigrants make to western societies . All well and good for the western societies but fuck poor Africa who desperately needs those people as its future . It's makes Africa's long term problems even worse . Their talent is flooding out . And if Ireland's anything to go by such people are often encouraged to leave as a deliberate safety valve by the corrupt establishments in their own country . I know the scenario all too well . It's not helping the much deeper rooted problem one bit .

 

[rekil]

Gaddafi was just great.

Joint naval patrols with Italy; laws penalising illegal immigration; a crackdown on 'people smugglers'; new detention centres and deportation procedures; readmission agreements on migrants intercepted at sea all these developments reflected Libya's new willingness to cooperate with Europe's exclusionary agenda and many of them were part-financed by the EU and Italy.

Humanitarian considerations were conspicuously absent from these arrangements. Libya has never signed the 1951 Geneva Refugee Convention and has no functioning asylum system. Economic migrants and refugees in Libya were routinely detained for months and even years in horrendously overcrowded detention centres, where rape, violence and torture were common.

Each year thousands of African migrants were deported to the Libyan/Sudanese border and abandoned in the desert, or flown back to their countries of origin on deportation charter flights without being screened to find out whether they were in need of refugee protection. There were also allegations of Libyan coastguard patrols opening fire on migrant boats.

By outsourcing its border controls to a dictatorship without a functioning asylum system, Europe was able to prevent asylum-seekers from reaching its shores, while continuing to proclaim its commitment to the principle of refugee protection. Other EU neighbours have also acted as buffer zones in Europe's immigration controls, including Tunisia and Morocco, Ukraine and Turkey. But none has been as ruthlessly effective as Libya.

 

[nino_savatte]

You can't stop migration. It's just not feasible. If we blockade the med then there'll simply more coming in via overland routes, or via the canaries. Anyone touting a blockade as a realistic solution to anything other than their most short term sense of guilt over the senseless deaths is being naive. A blockade would not improve the lives of these migrants, many of whom are living in abominable conditions in Libya and elsewhere.

Exactly. What those who complain about migration forget is that all animals migrate, and whether we like it or not, we are animals. If there is no food or shelter, then we migrate to find those things. Stopping migration is like stopping people from having sex: it ain't gonna happen.

 

[Teaboy]

So no boundaries no borders?

 

[nino_savatte]

Boundaries and borders are largely artificial anyway. Let me ask you this: if you lived in a place that was ravaged by war and famine, would you stay and die or migrate to some place where you could find food and be free from violence and bloodshed?

 

[WoodElf]

Exactly. What those who complain about migration forget is that all animals migrate, and whether we like it or not, we are animals. If there is no food or shelter, then we migrate to find those things. Stopping migration is like stopping people from having sex: it ain't gonna happen.

Bears don't migrate, they hibernate. Maybe the EU could build a big warm cave full of berries in Africa

 

[Teaboy]

Ok so no boundaries no borders it is.

You'd have to be a cold hearted utter sociopath or Katie Hopkins to not feel enourmous amounts of sympathy to everyone currently trying to flee war or famine or even just to try and make a better life. But all this sympathy does not make the problems surrounding large scale migration simply go away, it's a very complex situation.

 

[nino_savatte]

Bears don't migrate, they hibernate. Maybe the EU could build a big warm cave full of berries in Africa

Rubbish, they go to where there's food. I suppose if you faced similar circumstances, you'd stay and die. Perhaps your survival instinct is non-existent?

 

[nino_savatte]

ut all this sympathy does not make the problems surrounding large scale migration simply go away, it's a very complex situation.

No shit, Sherlock but telling people that they can't migrate is fundamentally wrong on many levels. It's fine when Brits migrate to other countries but if they happen to be black or brown or fleeing persecution/starvation, it's a different story.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

https://bilgewatch.wordpress.com/20...-revolting-anti-human-attitudes-towards-them/

 

[Teaboy]

No shit, Sherlock but telling people that they can't migrate is fundamentally wrong on many levels. .

I'm not saying people can't migrate, who is? What I am saying is that completly unalloyed migration is going to cause a lot of problems and I've seen noting from anyone that looks like solutions to these problems, what about you?

There just needs to be a better stratetgy to manage the situation and I don't really know what that is. I like some of ideas coming out of Germany regarding spreading the load as it were, but how many migrants / refugees will want to live in Poland or Bulgaria or Romania? Not many I'd wager.

 

[Teaboy]

https://bilgewatch.wordpress.com/20...-revolting-anti-human-attitudes-towards-them/

This kind of thing is exactly what I mean, loads of finger pointing, loads of outrage but no realistic solutions apart from no boundaries no borders, which is pie in the sky.

We can all scream and shout, we can all be heartbroken and outraged but waht fucking good is it going to do? All across the World you can witness tension and conflict surrounding issues of migration (just look at SA at the moment), there is a growing far right sentiment across Europe - we may not like this, indeed we may hate it, but we cannot ignore it because these problems are everywhere. Therefore a proper strategy is needed beyond "Look! They're all dying there!"

 

[WoodElf]

Rubbish, they go to where there's food. I suppose if you faced similar circumstances, you'd stay and die. Perhaps your survival instinct is non-existent?

Not much survival instinct involved in a lot of the boats you see on the news!

 

[nino_savatte]

I'm not saying people can't migrate, who is? What I am saying is that completly unalloyed migration is going to cause a lot of problems and I've seen noting from anyone that looks like solutions to these problems, what about you?

This is entirely contradictory. On the one hand, you tell me that you're not saying people "can't migrate" and on the other, you're telling me that "unalloyed migration" (whatever that is) is wrong. You can;'t have it both ways.

I'm sure you realise that there are British people living in countries like Bulgaria where they have bought up houses and pushed local property prices up? Is that an example of 'good' migration?

 

[editor]

Not much survival instinct involved in a lot of the boats you see on the news!

What the fuck does that mean?

 

[Teaboy]

This is entirely contradictory. On the one hand, you tell me that you're not saying people "can't migrate" and on the other, you're telling me that "unalloyed migration" (whatever that is) is wrong. You can;'t have it both ways.

I see a difference between the normal movement of people and mass migration into one area. The latter will always cause numerous problems. I'm not going to get involved in your other strawman.

But again, what is your solution beyond righteous indignation? We are where we are, we all know where the problems have come about and who caused them, but this is it now. Do you think Europe (and by Europe I mean a handful of Northern European states) should just re-home all migrants and refugees? This is what you appear to be suggesting, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[krtek a houby]

Not much survival instinct involved in a lot of the boats you see on the news!

Explain

 

[hot air baboon]

....in terms of the political "sell" the Green Party seem to be the only ones matching rhetoric to the currently articulated vision of embracing - in the long term - this potentially significant movement of people....

"...Richer regions and communities do not have the right to use migration controls to protect their privileges from others in the long term.."

...so what exactly does that mean and how do we define "privileges"....a welfare state and health service....? ( as noted above already mandated out of existence in many parts the world )

...the other factor that must surely come into play at some point ( & may already be at work under the surface shifting some of these tectonic plates ) has to be population numbers....people looking for precedents in all past , recent and deep historical migration patterns are ignoring the sheer force of lots and lots of people.....

....OK Malthusianism as an idea has now become a by-word for the failure of pessimistically blinkered forecasting to forsee the upsides of development and modernisation ....but that still puts us in some sort of precariosuly risky race of science and human ingenuity against more atavistic forces that seem hugley resilient...( not least breeding ) we have to keep on inventing new leaps forward to stay ahead of this wave of people....it worries the crap out of me if Im being honest - esp when you read stuff like this :

World population to hit 11bn in 2100 – with 70% chance of continuous rise
New study overturns 20 years of consensus on peak projection of 9bn and gradual decline

...although I am left fairly confused as to how on earth that squares with this :

 

[Treacle Toes]

Not much survival instinct involved in a lot of the boats you see on the news!

It seems to me that it is the ultimate in survival instinct to risk your life in this way considering the odds. Twit. What a idiotic/unempathetic thing to say.

 

[Teaboy]

Stop fucking about with other people's countries. Stop supporting dictators or juntas or just gangs of mad bastards for reasons of economic or political expediency.

In the meantime, provide people with a safe and lawful way to come to Europe if that's what they want or need to do. This would cut the people traffickers who keep sending these people to their deaths out of the equation. It would also mean that many people would arrive in Europe with more money to spend on taking care of themselves and establishing a new life, so they would be less dependant on charity or state handouts.

Something also needs to be done about the fact that so many migrants end up stranded in Greece, Italy and Spain even when they don't want to be there. Ideally give migrants the same freedom of movement as EU citizens, but failing that at least establish a fair set of quotas.

See here's some ideas. Frank's right in all of these cases but how will it work in practice? Should there be centres based in N.Africa to assess who is a refugee and who is a migrant or do we just open up the borders to everyone? What would be the impact of that, how feasible is it to do that, would other countries follow suit, what would be the effect if they didn't? What would be the impact of large low skilled immigration on the host country?

I'm fucked if I know and I'm properly fucked off with the situation but I don't see any answers that don't require what would be tantamount to a revolution in the way European countries are governed.

 

[WoodElf]

What the fuck does that mean?

The man said that it's survival instinct the mass migrations from Africa to Europe

 

[WoodElf]

It seems to me that it is the ultimate in survival instinct to risk your life in this way considering the odds. Twit. What a idiotic/unempathetic thing to say.

Are you sure? Not everyone is leaving, maybe you would have better odds joining up with one of the powerful groups and keeping your head down