Lampedusa boat disaster: Divers recover more bodies

[weltweit]

http://news.sky.com/story/1468591/distress-call-from-sinking-migrant-boat-in-med

Video of a rescue on Greece

 

[weltweit]

I was a Lampedusa refugee. Here’s my story of fleeing Libya – and surviving
http://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-refugee-fleeing-libya-boats-italy?CMP=twt_gu

 

[nino_savatte]

The language changes with the political agenda but the reality is vv tough for anyone coming to the UK and I say that as a child of immigrants - but the barefaced hypocrisy over Libya is something else - that country was ruined by NATO

NATO's intention was never humanitarian and many of us warned what would happen. Fucking capitalism.

 

[Casually Red]

Surely while Europe is rich and many African countries poor and war-torn, people will want to migrate. The only long term solution (other than making Europe poor and war-torn) is to help many African countries become richer and more peaceful.

/stating the obvious since 1964

One of the main reasons Europe is rich is because they continue to extract raw resources from Africa , process them and then sell them on as finished goods . Often selling them back to Africans . And when an African , such as gadaffi or Patrice lumumba for example, tries to change this relationship the atlanticists simply kill them . Simple as that . Along with projects such as the african dinar ...a single african currency that would have eliminated the Cfa franc and with it a huge slice of the french economy . Ask yourself why sarkozy was so Utterly intent on killing gadaffi despite gadaffis major assistance to him ? Was sarkozy a deeply concerned humanitarian who believed gadaffi was going to do something dreadful to the poor Libyans he cared about so so much . Or was he just another European gangster protecting lucrative European rackets in former colonies that we're threatened by these type of initiatives ? This is all obvious I know but it sadly needs saying .

The superior standard of living many ordinary Europeans enjoy often comes at the direct expense of Africans . Your coffee for example , even if it's fairtrade . Most likely picked in Africa but almost certainly processed and packaged in a western country ...unless its ugandan ...because gadaffi financed processing there to ensure the profits stayed in Africa as opposed to Europe .

The simple ...and very sad...fact is if we want to see change in Africa we are going to have to effect change in Europe . To overthrow our own imperialist, colonialist and capitalist gangster system that's the direct cause of African ills . We talk of peace in Africa yet don't ask ourselves how the hell did Charles Taylor mysteriously escape from a high security american prison and make his way to Liberia ? He certainly didn't evaporate through the walls . He was sent there by his captors . The same people who've backed and imposed numerous other monsters across Africa to look after their interests . That's going to contine happening sadly unless we radically change things in this part of the world . The root of Africa's evils .

 

[weltweit]

Mediterranean migrant crisis: EU sets out measures
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-32383126

 

[Idris2002]

One of the main reasons Europe is rich is because they continue to extract raw resources from Africa , process them and then sell them on as finished goods . Often selling them back to Africans . And when an African , such as gadaffi or Patrice lumumba for example, tries to change this relationship the atlanticists simply kill them . Simple as that . Along with projects such as the african dinar ...a single african currency that would have eliminated the Cfa franc and with it a huge slice of the french economy . Ask yourself why sarkozy was so Utterly intent on killing gadaffi despite gadaffis major assistance to him ? Was sarkozy a deeply concerned humanitarian who believed gadaffi was going to do something dreadful to the poor Libyans he cared about so so much . Or was he just another European gangster protecting lucrative European rackets in former colonies that we're threatened by these type of initiatives ? This is all obvious I know but it sadly needs saying .

The superior standard of living many ordinary Europeans enjoy often comes at the direct expense of Africans . Your coffee for example , even if it's fairtrade . Most likely picked in Africa but almost certainly processed and packaged in a western country ...unless its ugandan ...because gadaffi financed processing there to ensure the profits stayed in Africa as opposed to Europe .

The simple ...and very sad...fact is if we want to see change in Africa we are going to have to effect change in Europe . To overthrow our own imperialist, colonialist and capitalist gangster system that's the direct cause of African ills . We talk of peace in Africa yet don't ask ourselves how the hell did Charles Taylor mysteriously escape from a high security american prison and make his way to Liberia ? He certainly didn't evaporate through the walls . He was sent there by his captors . The same people who've backed and imposed numerous other monsters across Africa to look after their interests . That's going to contine happening sadly unless we radically change things in this part of the world . The root of Africa's evils .

Re: Charles Taylor. Other readers may think that this is CR being a loon again, but the story about CT being helped escape from the pen in the states is apparently for real.

 

[Dogsauce]

Interestingly, the term 'asylum seekers', which also carried negative connotations, appears to have been dropped in favour of the word 'migrant'. Once upon a time, it was splashed all over the tabloids and was often coupled with the words 'illegal' or 'fake'.

Language is power.

It was 'bogus' that was the favourite adjective of the shit papers, or frequently that old favourite 'so-called'.

 

[Roadkill]

It was 'bogus' that was the favourite adjective of the shit papers, or frequently that old favourite 'so-called'.

Wasn't it Anne Widdecombe who first came up with the phrase, 'bogus asylum seeker'? I remember thinking at the time that 'bogus' was a word I'd last read in a book by Roald Dahl, but then as soon as Anne Widdecombe started using it the right-wing press began repeating it parrot-fashion all over the place.

 

[likesfish]

If you want to stop people trafficking send people back and burn the boats Australia proved that 18 months with no dead migrants can't get through, can't make money shipping people that's doable EU can put a close blockade in of the Libyan coast.
Doable and politicaly sellable

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

If you want to stop people trafficking send people back and burn the boats Australia proved that 18 months with no dead migrants can't get through, can't make money shipping people that's doable EU can put a close blockade in of the Libyan coast.
Doable and politicaly sellable

Wut?

 

[likesfish]

The ships loaded with refugees are coming from libya a sqd of frigates a few miles off the coast can stop them and turn them back migrant crisis stopped.
While a shit policy better than having thousands play meditterran roulette which seems the solution on offer at the moment.

 

[Casually Red]

The ships loaded with refugees are coming from libya a sqd of frigates a few miles off the coast can stop them and turn them back migrant crisis stopped.
While a shit policy better than having thousands play meditterran roulette which seems the solution on offer at the moment.

It's a ...very..politically incorrect and harsh suggestion but it shouldn't be rejected out of hand . It's definitely a lesser evil than the current situation of a laissez faire death lottery . If the traffickers know they're going to get caught and lose their boats its seriously bad for business, which is all it is for them . The current situation seems to be " I'd prefer to see you and your family drown than look a bit racist " . While sipping a latte that Africans aren't let package , process and distribute in their own countries . A simple solution that would stop a lot of migration in the first place .

Fuck this shit about blood diamonds...it's a deliberate distraction . The vast majority of us will never be able to afford a diamond . The entire western trade in African resources is soaked in african blood .

 

[Flavour]

Fuck you, likesfish. Fuck you. The migrant problem would not be solved by militarizing the Med. It would just be that - militarized. "SEND 'EM BACK!" ... listen to yourself. Australia's example is hardly worthy of praise - the UN says they've broken international law.

In practice the situation would be an even bigger humanitarian disaster than it is currently: thousands and thousands of people trapped in detention centres in Libya, unable to return to their home countries, unable to come to Europe, threatened by ISIS and other maniacs in Libya, but it'd be alright because we in Europe wouldn't have to worry so much? Problem solved?

 

[DotCommunist]

if they're willing to pay all they have for a possible watery grave, how much worse the alternative of stayting put? Life at home must be shit to take them odds

 

[Flavour]

if they're willing to pay all they have for a possible watery grave, how much worse the alternative of stayting put? Life at home must be shit to take them odds

exactly. nobody here defending the rights of refugees to freedom of movement is also defending the right of the traffickers to exploit them. it's not about them.

 

[nino_savatte]

If you want to stop people trafficking send people back and burn the boats Australia proved that 18 months with no dead migrants can't get through, can't make money shipping people that's doable EU can put a close blockade in of the Libyan coast.
Doable and politicaly sellable

Christ, you're a real humanitarian. Aren't you?

 

[nino_savatte]

if they're willing to pay all they have for a possible watery grave, how much worse the alternative of stayting put? Life at home must be shit to take them odds

Innit. I have nothing but the utmost respect for anyone who makes such a perilous journey. How many of those who whine about 'migrants' escaping wars and deprivation would do the same if they were in their shoes? I put this question to someone a couple of weeks ago and they admitted they'd do exactly the same thing.

 

[weltweit]

I saw a graphic on twitter yesterday, went something like this:

Drowned Migrants

Immigrants

DEAD CHILDREN!

The emphasis was on the children!

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

if they're willing to pay all they have for a possible watery grave, how much worse the alternative of stayting put? Life at home must be shit to take them odds

Let us not forget that those who make it far enough to have a risk of drowning have first crossed the Sahara, sands littered with the corpses of hundreds of thousands of refugees.

Likesfish's suggestion that they be made to cross that again is pretty much along the lines of Katie Hopkins's gunboat bullshit.

 

[treelover]

It not just coffee, apparently the clothing industry in Africa has been marginalised as masses of second hand clothing floods the continent, though of course it is sold on to africans

 

[treelover]

Fuck you, likesfish. Fuck you. The migrant problem would not be solved by militarizing the Med. It would just be that - militarized. "SEND 'EM BACK!" ... listen to yourself. Australia's example is hardly worthy of praise - the UN says they've broken international law.

In practice the situation would be an even bigger humanitarian disaster than it is currently: thousands and thousands of people trapped in detention centres in Libya, unable to return to their home countries, unable to come to Europe, threatened by ISIS and other maniacs in Libya, but it'd be alright because we in Europe wouldn't have to worry so much? Problem solved?

Only if you support complete Open Borders, there is no easy answers and that includes OB.

 

[Pickman's model]

Only if you support complete Open Borders, there is no easy answers and that includes OB.

ob? acab!

 

[weltweit]

800 migrants on the last boat to sink in the Med, the survivors fitted on a single bus.

 

[likesfish]

1. Did not say it was a good policy said it was a policy that would work

 

[Teaboy]

1. Did not say it was a good policy said it was a policy that would work

And probably will be what is being discussed by the EU. I find it hard to believe there is much will to just absorb this amount of refugees.

 

[Sasaferrato]

1. Did not say it was a good policy said it was a policy that would work

If it is that, or children drowning whilst locked in the hold of a ship, then a blockade is a workable answer, to preventing the abominable death toll. It isn't the answer though.

 

[Flavour]

You can't stop migration. It's just not feasible. If we blockade the med then there'll simply more coming in via overland routes, or via the canaries. Anyone touting a blockade as a realistic solution to anything other than their most short term sense of guilt over the senseless deaths is being naive. A blockade would not improve the lives of these migrants, many of whom are living in abominable conditions in Libya and elsewhere.

 

[Sasaferrato]

You can't stop migration. It's just not feasible. If we blockade the med then there'll simply more coming in via overland routes, or via the canaries. Anyone touting a blockade as a realistic solution to anything other than their most short term sense of guilt over the senseless deaths is being naive. A blockade would not improve the lives of these migrants, many of whom are living in abominable conditions in Libya and elsewhere.

The question is, how much of a drop in standard of living are we prepared to accept, with the concomitant rise in unemployment? Any solution which has a humanitarian outcome is going to cost a lot of money. The money is there, the will...?

 

[kebabking]

You can't stop migration. It's just not feasible. If we blockade the med then there'll simply more coming in via overland routes, or via the canaries. Anyone touting a blockade as a realistic solution to anything other than their most short term sense of guilt over the senseless deaths is being naive. A blockade would not improve the lives of these migrants, many of whom are living in abominable conditions in Libya and elsewhere.

fine, if we're talking about population shift - not individual immigration, but population migration - because a large swathe of Africa is becoming uninhabitable due to climate change and interminable conflict (perhaps not unlike that last seen during the Ice Age, when northern Europe became uninhabitable..), then say so.

saying 'accept them' is fine, however we are realisticly talking about tens of millions of people moving to an area with 500 million people in a fairly short period of time. politically that could be a, err... challenging policy to sell, and these people will need housing, financial support, healthcare - which will also be a somewhat difficult policy to persuade the European public to accept and pay for.

staging a naval blockade of north Africa and destroying the boats/ships/deathtraps on land would be expensive, properly expensive. it would do little for those seeking to get to Europe, however it would reduce the number of those drowned. it would also mean that a good proportion of those looking to get somewhere better than wherever they are might decide that Europe isn't worth the hassle and therefore they wouldn't travel through, or congregate in, Libya.

all of the options are shit options, very shit options.

 

[Casually Red]

Plus thanks to the wests destruction of Libya...and Iraq..and Syria..Libya is right now chock full off all sorts of nutters . Open borders is a great fucking idea in that context . Not .