Lampedusa boat disaster: Divers recover more bodies

[Treacle Toes]

 

[stuff_it]

East Anglia has struggled to assimilate 300,000 Eastern Europeans (I am always astounded to hear the oft repeated statement that support for UKIP arises in places which has experienced the least immigration - a statement easily refuted in Wisbech, Spalding, Thetford, Yarmouth) so I dread to imagine the potential upheaval created by massive refugee diasporas. Housing, for example. In a capital where demand already outstrips supply (although this is disputed) I fail to see how councils will deal with an influx of many thousands more.

East "Angular" has struggled to assimilate even the neighbors - as years of close breeding will attest.

 

[DownwardDog]

If you want to stop people trafficking send people back and burn the boats Australia proved that 18 months with no dead migrants can't get through, can't make money shipping people that's doable EU can put a close blockade in of the Libyan coast.
Doable and politicaly sellable

The boat turnbacks are only part of the Australian policy. All of the post 2013 arrivals will never see Australia, they'll be resettled in Cambodia, PNG or Nauru. Also, detainees who were already in detention from before 2013 can only get temporary protection visas which have no pathway to citizenship. I really doubt the EU has the stomach for all that. The Australian solution is completely unworkable in Europe.

 

[kebabking]

View attachment 70583

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post pictures of dead children all you like, but that doesn't make policy any easier - if i posted 10,000 pictures of dead Syrian children would you suddenly decide that UK military intervention on the ground was the correct policy?

 

[Treacle Toes]

post pictures of dead children all you like, but that doesn't make policy any easier - if i posted 10,000 pictures of dead Syrian children would you suddenly decide that UK military intervention on the ground was the correct policy?

1. I missed the bit where you declared yourself and Woodelf the same poster.
2. You appear to be suggesting that I have some kind of sliding scale of value with regard the ethnicity and numbers of dead children. Don't.

 

[ska invita]

What the fuck does that mean?

it means "new member" + ignore button + inevitable imminent ban

 

[ska invita]

In my mind they are refugees. That's what they were called before someone decided the word 'migrant' should be used. This word effectively criminalises and dehumanises anyone who flees wars or natural disasters and fixes this presumed illegality in the mind of a media consumer. It's also misleading since a 'migrant' could be an immigrant or an emigrant. If you move across London, you're a migrant. If you move from Wigan to Hull to take up a new job, you're a migrant.

Interestingly, the term 'asylum seekers', which also carried negative connotations, appears to have been dropped in favour of the word 'migrant'. Once upon a time, it was splashed all over the tabloids and was often coupled with the words 'illegal' or 'fake'.

Language is power.

also economic refugees

 

[nino_savatte]

The fact that this animal kingdom you're so intent on comparing us to is absolutely full of borders . It's the most natural thing in the world .


And that this talk of a one world no border malarkey , which will never ever happen , is only going to increase support for the far right which is going from strength to strength in direct relation to immigration . At a time when the intersectionist ridden mostly bourgeois left in Europe is possibly at its most disconnected , disorganised and disreputable point in its entire history . And completely incapable of containing them or putting up a convincing argument against them . It's no help to anyone .

You're not making sense. Are you saying that's the case with all animals? You've clearly left out insects and birds, the latter of which migrates north-south/east-west every year. Even those animals you mention don't have defined borders.

Your last paragraph makes even less sense than the first. How would 'no borders' "help the far-right"? I'd like you to produce something that looks like evidence instead of speculation based on your own biases.

European national borders have shifted considerably over the course of centuries. That's what makes them largely artificial. In other words, they are drawn by men (a woman in the case of Iraq).

 

[Spymaster]

Are you saying that's the case with all animals? You've clearly left out insects and birds, the latter of which migrates north-south/east-west every year. Even those animals you mention don't have defined borders.

You're misunderstanding what he's saying. You started the animal nonsense and, unusually for CR, he's making sense here.

Substitute "borders" for "territory" in the animal world, if you must.

Very few people in the real world think that 'no borders' is a good idea. Show us a country that practices it.

It means sharing resources with those less fortunate, unendingly, and plays into the hands of the "dilution of culture" merchants of the far right. The unpredictability of that is concerning to even those with the best intentions. The argument is that if a political party were to campaign on 'no borders', only a handful of uber-lefties would vote for them. The rest would swing away, perhaps dramatically, pushing the overall voting pattern to the right.

 

[nino_savatte]

You're misunderstanding what he's saying. You started the animal nonsense and, unusually for CR, he's making sense here.

I've misunderstood nothing. My point still stands.

 

[nino_savatte]

It means sharing resources with those less fortunate, unendingly, and plays into the hands of the "dilution of culture" merchants of the far right.

That happens already without so-called open borders. have a look at the comments threads of the 'quality' press.

 

[Spymaster]

I've misunderstood nothing.

Well you clearly have otherwise you wouldn't be banging on about birds and insects.

That happens already without so-called open borders. have a look at the comments threads of the 'quality' press.

Right. Now you're making CR's point for him. If that happens already what do you think would happen if completely open immigration was allowed?

 

[nino_savatte]

Thanks for those misrepresentations.

I wonder if any of you have a shred of compassion or humanity between you. Unlikely.

 

[Pickman's model]

this will end well: let's send 150,000 desperate migrants back to africa and launch a military operation against traffickers' boats



perhaps a preferable stratagem would have been to improve matters in libya and other countries in africa (and the middle east) so these unfortunate people were not left with little alternative than to gamble their lives on the mediterranean.

 

[dylanredefined]

That happens already without so-called open borders. have a look at the comments threads of the 'quality' press.[/QUOT

I see this and think someone will see it as a solution rather than a condemnation

 

[dylanredefined]

this will end well: let's send 150,000 desperate migrants back to africa and launch a military operation against traffickers' boats



perhaps a preferable stratagem would have been to improve matters in libya and other countries in africa (and the middle east) so these unfortunate people were left with little alternative than to gamble their lives on the mediterranean.

The military can break and smash things ,and ,as a quick reaction to the disaster stopping the boats needs to be done. Any answer which doesn't involve fixing the places they are fleeing from is the wrong one though.
People have fortified borders before they failed to stop the flow and only added to the tide of human misery.

 

[Pickman's model]

The military can break and smash things ,and ,as a quick reaction to the disaster stopping the boats needs to be done. Any answer which doesn't involve fixing the places they are fleeing from is the wrong one though.
People have fortified borders before they failed to stop the flow and only added to the tide of human misery.

how long until the smashing smashes a ship with refugees on tho?

 

[dylanredefined]

how long until the smashing smashes a ship with refugees on tho?

Almost immediately I reckon. The military could provide a solution and it would provide nice explosions wouldn't solve anything long term.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I see this and think someone will see it as a solution rather than a condemnation

It's a memorial.

It exists as a condemnation of the fact that some people already thought/think/see it as a solution.

 

[WoodElf]

Europe should fix Africa?

 

[Casually Red]

You're not making sense. Are you saying that's the case with all animals? You've clearly left out insects and birds, the latter of which migrates north-south/east-west every year. Even those animals you mention don't have defined borders.

Your last paragraph makes even less sense than the first. How would 'no borders' "help the far-right"? I'd like you to produce something that looks like evidence instead of speculation based on your own biases.

European national borders have shifted considerably over the course of centuries. That's what makes them largely artificial. In other words, they are drawn by men (a woman in the case of Iraq).

www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeDRxUpcqyg
/

 

[Pickman's model]

European national borders have shifted considerably over the course of centuries. That's what makes them largely artificial. In other words, they are drawn by men (a woman in the case of Iraq).

can you name a single border which is not artificial?

 

[krtek a houby]

Europe should fix Africa?

Help. Europe should help the continent; where help is most needed.

 

[Casually Red]

European wealth is largely based on the stripping of African resources and the gangster like domination of its markets . That's the root of the problem . That's what needs addressed and not this one world , no borders ballsology that wafted straight out of a multi coloured unicorns hole . Empty Slogans are feck all use to anyone .

Africans are well capable of helping themselves if the playing field is levelled . They don't need saving by the white man . A load of victorian missionary bollocks .

 

[dylanredefined]

Europe should fix Africa?

Well if we want to stop the immigrant coming either help fix africa or get your Nazi on.

European wealth is largely based on the stripping of African resources and the gangster like domination of its markets . That's the root of the problem . That's what needs addressed and not this one world , no borders ballsology that wafted straight out of a multi coloured unicorns hole . Empty Slogans are feck all use to anyone .

Africans are well capable of helping themselves if the playing field is levelled . They don't need saving by the white man . A load of victorian missionary bollocks .

Bollocks Europe got rich for a lot of reasons not just stripping stuff from Africa. Not that we haven't screwed them over at every chance.

 

[Idris2002]

European wealth was originally based on looting the Americas. The smash and grab raids on Africa came a little later.

The idea that Euroland should "fix" Africa is indeed a load of a old bollix, however.

 

[likesfish]

Could actually help though rather than hinder.
Although china is doneing its bst to own africa these days.

 

[kebabking]

nuts and bolts, and roadblocks....

the UK is offering the Assault/Landing ship HMS Bulwark (20,000 tons, maaaahoosive flight deck, accommodation for 700 non-crew, well deck for launching small boats - RIB's and landing craft) two 'patrol' ships, the identities of which have not been released but could be anything from the 24 ton inshore boats of the Scimitar class in Gibraltar to a 5,000 ton Type 23 Frigate, and three helicopters - probably big Merlins...

however, at least two stumbling blocks have hoved into view: firstly that Italy is 'demanding' operational control of the EU effort (you provide the assets, you pay for them, we'll decide what to do with them), which is going down well, and secondly - and perhaps not unreasonably - Italy and Malta want any increace in the SAR effort to be matched by committments to take in the refugees/migrants on an EU basis, rather than a great armada of EU ships hoovering these people out of the sea and then dumping them on Italy and Malta and then legging it before you can say 'anti-immigration party'.

everyone else in the EU is giving it the big FO, arguing that being next to Africa is Italys problem, and the flip-side of having a nice climate.

 

[alfajobrob]

European wealth was originally based on looting the Americas. The smash and grab raids on Africa came a little later.

The idea that Euroland should "fix" Africa is indeed a load of a old bollix, however.

Any "fixing" of Africa by the EU will bring back the colonisation arguments.

With the reporting today anyone would think that Africa didn't have any culture or governance before the Euro's\Arabs arrived and slaved the entire Continent. It's massively patronising.

IMO the help they need is basically getting rid of the of the IMF/WB etc. i.e. Capitalism but that isn't going to happen as too many people have too much to lose.

There is no happy answer....I can only see more disparity, hate, fear and pain within the world..luckily I'll be dead "reasonably" soon so I won't have to watch the worst degradations.

My idea for a solution is fucked though. I'd revert back to US/UK type and install a harsh but semi friendly dictator

 

[Treacle Toes]

Europe should fix Africa?

Did you get a hard on when you wrote that?