Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.

[tangentlama]

For anyone who hasnt seen it here is 10 mins of footage. 3 reporters sharing a microphone. Some of it is in English

For anyone who hasnt seen it here is 10 mins of footage from the largest vessel, boarded by Israeli Defence Forces. There is blood and unfortunately injured aid-workers.

There are still sounds of live fire, even though the white flag has been raised

The footage must have been streaming from the ship live.

You can hear the bullets and the announcement to the aid-workers that they have lost control of the ship and asking for no-one to resist as the Israelis are using live ammunition.

 

[tangentlama]

For anyone who hasnt seen it here is 10 mins of footage. 3 reporters sharing a microphone. Some of it is in English

For anyone who hasnt seen it here is 10 mins of footage from the largest vessel, boarded by Israeli Defence Forces. There is blood and unfortunately injured aid-workers.

There are still sounds of live fire, even though the white flag has been raised

The footage must have been streaming from the ship live.

You can hear the bullets and the announcement to the aid-workers that they have lost control of the ship and asking for no-one to resist as the Israelis are using live ammunition. The sound of bullets becomes louder and closer, and then the footage ends.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The aid ships are the equivilant of Rosa Parks. Taking a big personal risk to right an injustice.

Oh....kay. And.......?

 

[Spymaster]

If you're pro-zionist ... how far into international waters does Israel's right to pre-emptively anticipate and neutralise threats extend?

Who are the pro-zionists?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Did black people die during the civil rights movement and if so was it all worth it?.

I'd say so.

 

[Blagsta]

Who are the pro-zionists?

how was it not self defence?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Because by blaming the peace activists for being shot you are blaming the civil rights activists for being lynched.

If a thief sticks a gun in your ribs and asks for your money, you have two choices.

If you don't give up the money and he shoots you, it's arguable that that could have been avoided, had you done as asked. So in a limited sense, your choice played a role in the consequence of the trigger being pulled.

But the overriding situation was, is, and remains illegal. The thief has no color of right allowing him to do what he is doing, and your resistance to his act may have led to your death, but your resistance does not somehow convert his shooting you into a legal or justified act.

This applies in so many areas. If you leave your car unlocked with a laptop sitting on the seat, you are a damn fool, and no one will be very surprised when it is stolen. But your leaving the door unlocked does not change the essential nature of what the thief does, which is to commit the crime of theft.

......................

 

[Citizen66]

I'd say so.

And my second point?

Answer it, don't refer me back to a previous post about a hypothetical armed fucking thief.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I'm asking you, and anyone else giving it large supporting Israeli govt ... How far into international waters does Israel's right to pre-emptively anticipate and neutralise threats extend?

You just said it was Israel thinks it has that right. I've never said that Israel has any jurisdiction one inch outside of its territorial waters.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

And my second point?

Answer it, don't refer me back to a previous post about a hypothetical armed fucking thief.

That post is my answer. Why should I keep paraphrasing, when I've said it once already? If you ignore it or pretend you haven't read or understood it, I'll keep reposting it.

 

[Spymaster]

how was it not self defence?

What I'm saying is that it ceased being reasonable self defence once they were boarded.

My position is somewhat different to that of JC's in that I fully support the aid convoy and respect the vast majority of the crews. I just question the motivations of a few that may have been there.

 

[Citizen66]

That post is my answer. Why should I keep paraphrasing, when I've said it once already? If you ignore it or pretend you haven't read or understood it, I'll keep reposting it.

Ok then. She should have got out of her seat and done as she was told else she may bring harm on herself and others.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

She should have got out of her seat and done as she was told else she may bring harm on herself and others.

Why is that?

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Why is that?

Are you being deliberately dense?

 

[Citizen66]

Why is that?

That is your stance throughout this thread.

 

[Blagsta]

What I'm saying is that it ceased being reasonable self defence once they were boarded.

My position is somewhat different to that of JC's in that I fully support the aid convoy and respect the vast majority of the crews. I just question the motivations of a few that may have been there.

how did it cease to be self defence?

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

What I'm saying is that it ceased being reasonable self defence once they were boarded.

My position is somewhat different to that of JC's in that I fully support the aid convoy and respect the vast majority of the crews. I just question the motivations of a few that may have been there.

That's simply ridiculous. Does "reasonable self defence" cease as soon as the burglar is in your bedroom? Does "reasonable self defence" cease as soon as a mugger grabs your anorak? ffs....

 

[agricola]

Are you being deliberately dense?

He is just trolling. His stance is basically that the Israelis were wrong for doing this, the flotilla chaps were wrong for resisting and the post count is wrong for not being at 100,000 yet.

 

[cesare]

Who are the pro-zionists?

Supporters of the Israel state d'oh

Aside: I asked this of a client recently. He said "do you mean that I support the Israeli government? Yes I do. But do I think of myself as a zionist; no I don't"

 

[Spymaster]

how did it cease to be self defence?

There's a fine line between self-defence and assault or other aggression. Once the ship was boarded by heavily armed commandos there's a point at which not surrendering to ovewhelming odds becomes stupidity.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Thing is, while the Israelis are holding most of the surviving witnesses incommunicado, we actually don't know what the circumstances are for sure.

There may be factors that we're unaware of that would change our interpretation. For example, that report cited a while back of the captain of a different ship being shot. If true that opens up some different interpretation of the circumstances of the shooting, as do the allegations of shooting before boarding. Israel is holding most of the people who could elucidate this stuff and is in a position to lose any inconvenient footage that didn't get transmitted.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Thing is, while the Israelis are holding most of the surviving witnesses incommunicado, we actually don't know what the circumstances are for sure.

There may be factors that we're unaware of that would change our interpretation. For example, that report cited a while back of the captain of a different ship being shot. If true that opens up some different interpretation of the circumstances of the shooting, as do the allegations of shooting before boarding. Israel is holding most of the people who could elucidate this stuff and is in a position to lose any inconvenient footage that didn't get transmitted.

You're surely not suggesting that vested interests may have already been manipulating the news output are you?

 

[Blagsta]

There's a fine line between self-defence and assault or other aggression. Once the ship was boarded by heavily armed commandos there's a point at which not surrendering to ovewhelming odds becomes stupidity.

You haven't answered the question.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Are you being deliberately dense?

I'm not clear where anyone got the idea that I'm opposed to civil disobedience.

 

[cesare]

You just said it was Israel thinks it has that right. I've never said that Israel has any jurisdiction one inch outside of its territorial waters.

So if Israel acts outside its jurisdictional waters i.e the subject matter - how do you feel about that?

 

[butchersapron]

What I'm saying is that it ceased being reasonable self defence once they were boarded.

My position is somewhat different to that of JC's in that I fully support the aid convoy and respect the vast majority of the crews. I just question the motivations of a few that may have been there.

You used to be a good poster.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

So if Israel acts outside its jurisdictional waters i.e the subject matter - how do you feel about that?

I feel that it's illegal.

 

[Blagsta]

You used to be a good poster.

Lol. When was that?

 

[butchersapron]

I'm not clear where anyone got the idea that I'm opposed to civil disobedience.

I'm not sure anyone cares either.


Wrong side. Of an easy thing to get right.

 

[Spymaster]

You haven't answered the question.

Well I have, I think. It stops being self-defence when those that aren't directly threatened themselves, prolong the violence by getting more involved. Now whether that's happened here at all and if so to what extent remains to be seen.

But I think it's far from unlikely and worthy of consideration.