Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.

[Johnny Canuck3]

and if the cop shoots you, it's your own fault?

If a thief sticks a gun in your ribs and asks for your money, you have two choices.

If you don't give up the money and he shoots you, it's arguable that that could have been avoided, had you done as asked. So in a limited sense, your choice played a role in the consequence of the trigger being pulled.

But the overriding situation was, is, and remains illegal. The thief has no color of right allowing him to do what he is doing, and your resistance to his act may have led to your death, but your resistance does not somehow convert his shooting you into a legal or justified act.

This applies in so many areas. If you leave your car unlocked with a laptop sitting on the seat, you are a damn fool, and no one will be very surprised when it is stolen. But your leaving the door unlocked does not change the essential nature of what the thief does, which is to commit the crime of theft.

...................

 

[discokermit]

Shows up his utter paucity of argument, after all a picture of someone drunk 2 weeks ago means they have no valid argument to make this evening on an entirely unrelated issue....

at least his argument has moved on from hinting that they had loads of weapons on board and were prepared to die like suicide bombers.

 

[Fedayn]

Fuck me you're a thick cunt.

At the point where shots were fired they could have dropped their tools and offered no resistance. The ship was going to be taken the moment the helicopter was overhead.

That bloke on the news reckoned they had been followed by "4 boats and a (presumeably very noisy) helicopter for several hours", so no fucker was sleeping on the deck. It's not like the assault came as a surprise.

Self defence is not based on surprise you know. And no i'm not thick, simply defending the right of people to defend themselves against illegal military actions.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Fuck me you're a thick cunt.

At the point where shots were fired they could have dropped their tools and offered no resistance. The ship was going to be taken the moment the helicopter was overhead.

That bloke on the news reckoned they had been followed by "4 boats and a (presumeably very noisy) helicopter for several hours", so no fucker was sleeping on the deck. It's not like the assault came as a surprise.

Resorting to ad hominem attacks so readily?

Doesn't really say much about the substance of your argument does it?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Yes, because that's a really good analogy with the campaign to break an illegal blockade which is causing a humanitarian crisis....

Let me quote the second paragraph also, which is an integral part of the post:

If a cop gives me a ticket for going 1 km over the speed limit, I'll think it's unjustified, but I won't risk making a disturbance that sees him drawing his gun.

If that same cop comes to arrest my neighbor because he's chinese for instance, as a result of some totalitarian turn to the right, I'll make a disturbance that might see the cop drawing his gun.

 

[Spion]

At the point where shots were fired they could have dropped their tools and offered no resistance. The ship was going to be taken the moment the helicopter was overhead.

That matter was disputed, clearly.

 

[Spymaster]

Resorting to ad hominem attacks so readily?

Well if a thick cunt calls me a "fucking imbecile" it's likely I'll react.

And no i'm not thick, simply defending the right of people to defend themselves against illegal military actions.

Sounds to me you're just defending the right of people to further endanger the lives of themselves and others.

 

[Fedayn]

Let me quote the second paragraph also, which is an integral part of the post:

And stop there?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Shows up his utter paucity of argument, after all a picture of someone drunk 2 weeks ago means they have no valid argument to make this evening on an entirely unrelated issue....

One thing you might have observed, is that I'll not stoop to that level of infantile behaviour, until I've been posting my thoughts on a thread, and the responses have been peppered with insults and personal attacks.

Seems to me, we can disagree on a bulletin board, and then talk about it. I should be more mature about it, but the personal insults piss me off when I'm simply trying to make my point, and sometimes, I'll give back what I've been getting.

If you don't have good manners, why should I display them?

 

[cesare]

If you're warned that you will most likely be attacked if you proceed, and you proceed, one can assume that a lot of hard thinking has gone into the decision, in advance.

Yes. On both sides. But at which point in international waters should the aid workers have been expecting attack from Israel?

At which point should anyone in international waters expect attack from Israel?

Just found out my friend is safe. She was seen on BBC news24, is in detention but wasn't in handcuffs, and she 'looked ok' - am so relieved

Good news

 

[Fedayn]

One thing you might have observed, is that I'll not stoop to that level of infantile behaviour, until I've been posting my thoughts on a thread, and the responses have been peppered with insults and personal attacks.

Seems to me, we can disagree on a bulletin board, and then talk about it. I should be more mature about it, but the personal insults piss me off when I'm simply trying to make my point, and sometimes, I'll give back what I've been getting.

If you don't have good manners, why should I display them?

Didn't bother me you posted that pic, it just makes your argument even less convincing.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Well if a thick cunt calls me a "fucking imbecile" it's likely I'll react.

But that's because you keep resorting to this notion that people resisting an aggressor are somehow fundamentally wrong for doing so. The people on the boat were attacked by the commandos, they reacted. The rights and wrongs of what went on subsequently can't really be considered, until you at least acknowledge such simple truths can they?

 

[agricola]

Fuck me you're a thick cunt.

At the point where shots were fired they could have dropped their tools and offered no resistance. The ship was going to be taken the moment the helicopter was overhead.

You seem to have conflated two events in order to create something which is probably false. Your first point is almost certainly correct - I have no doubt that resistance did cease once live rounds were first fired, but the helicopter being overhead does not suggest that either a raid was imminent or that it would be successful - I cannot find any other instance where troops, or cops for that matter, have been dropped directly into a mob individually, certainly not in the Occupied Territories.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Didn't bother me you posted that pic, it just makes your argument even less convincing.

Yeah, well your calling me a buffoon or whatever, signifies to me that you're running out of actual ideas, and it's time to stop taking you seriously.

 

[magneze]

But they have had weeks to look at ways of stopping this without killing people. It wasn't a spur of the moment thing, they have had weeks to think about it.

This was a premeditated and planned assault not some spontaneous response

Ok, did you mean to reply to me? I presumed it was a joke, but maybe you were meaning to reply to someone else.

 

[Spymaster]

But that's because you keep resorting to this notion that people resisting an aggressor are somehow fundamentally wrong for doing so. The people on the boat were attacked by the commandos, they reacted. The rights and wrongs of what went on subsequently can't really be considered, until you at least acknowledge such simple truths can they?

Sorry mate, what is this simple truth that I've yet to acknowledge?

 

[Blagsta]

No, I'd stick it up his arse, but you're accepting that these people were acting in self defence and had no option but to fight or die.

I believe that there's reasonable justification to question this.

how could they not be acting in self defence?

 

[magneze]

Yeah, well your calling me a buffoon or whatever, signifies to me that you're running out of actual ideas, and it's time to stop taking you seriously.

I'd say that you ran out of ideas a few pages ago, posting pictures of another poster drunk on this unrelated thread is a bit oddball too if you ask me. But you aren't, but I'm telling you anyway.

 

[Paulie Tandoori]

Sorry mate, what is this simple truth that I've yet to acknowledge?

how could they not be acting in self defence?

this /\/\/\

 

[cesare]

I'm going to keep on asking this. How far out into international waters is it fine for Israel to take pre-emptive action?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I'm going to keep on asking this. How far out into international waters is it fine for Israel to take pre-emptive action?

You're assuming someone has said that it's fine for Israel to take pre emptive action in international waters.

 

[quimcunx]

Ok, did you mean to reply to me? I presumed it was a joke, but maybe you were meaning to reply to someone else.

It's okay. We sorted out the confusion.

 

[weepiper]

You're assuming someone has said that it's fine for Israel to take pre emptive action in international waters.

you are such a troll Johnny.

 

[Diamond]

You seem to have conflated two events in order to create something which is probably false. Your first point is almost certainly correct - I have no doubt that resistance did cease once live rounds were first fired, but the helicopter being overhead does not suggest that either a raid was imminent or that it would be successful - I cannot find any other instance where troops, or cops for that matter, have been dropped directly into a mob individually, certainly not in the Occupied Territories.

If resistance did cease the moment that shots were fired, that raises some pretty salient questions on the conduct of the Israeli troops following the boarding.

 

[Spymaster]

how could they not be acting in self defence?

I'll accept that they were defending the ship. But once the troops were aboard, that action was lost.

If the soldiers aboard are heavily armed and you're not, that's when to call it a day. If you don't, people will get shot.

 

[8ball]

you are such a troll Johnny.

I think you meant to say 'buffoon'.

 

[Spymaster]

I'm going to keep on asking this. How far out into international waters is it fine for Israel to take pre-emptive action?

Who said it was?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

you are such a troll Johnny.

I'm way better in person.

 

[little_legs]

At the risk of sounding tinfoilist, I do wonder how much of an "ally" Israel actually is nowadays - after all, they dont (and to my knowledge have never) supported the US in one of its military adventures overseas, they frequently spy on the US, they actively seek to influence US domestic politics and supporting them seriously complicates the relationship the US has with the rest of the world.

if israel is behaving like an enfant terrible, why doesn't US put a peace keep contingent in gaza?

 

[weepiper]

I'm way better in person.

the same could be said about a lot of people on here