Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.

[agricola]

If you were walking down the street lawfully and a police officer said, 'stop or I'll shoot', would you stop, or would you keep walking, secure in the knowledge that you were acting lawfully?

When the cop shot you without probable cause and out of his jurisdiction, would you expect the Court to believe everything the officer said and let him off?

 

[dylans]

There is the fact that if you continue forward toward the muzzles of guns in spite of repeated warnings to stop, you are either stupid or deaf, or you have considered the consequences of your actions.

Whether the shooting is lawful or unlawful, you will be equally dead.[/ouQUOTE]

The absence of right and wrong in all your posts is glaringly obvious

You don't blockade a people into starvation.

You don't send soldiers to kill unarmed civilians delivering aid to those being starved

If you do you are a criminal.

Which part of this do you have problems with?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

It will be safer for the Palestinians because the Israelis who take potshots at them won't risk killing an international.

Based on what's just happened, I'd say that wouldn't be such a safe bet to make in the future.

 

[Maidmarian]

If you were walking down the street lawfully and a police officer said, 'stop or I'll shoot', would you stop, or would you keep walking, secure in the knowledge that you were acting lawfully?

Johnny, that isn't what happened.

& saying it twice won't make it so.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

The absence of right and wrong in all your posts is glaringly obvious

You don't blockade a people into starvation.

You don't send soldiers to kill unarmed civilians delivering aid to those being starved

If you do you are a criminal.

Which part of this do you have problems with?

None of it. My simple point is that all arguments of right and wrong go out the window if it's the middle of the night, and you're staring into the muzzle of a gun held by an angry man barking orders at you.

When you find yourself in that situation, you have to decide whether to pick your battleground, go along with his commands, and fight it later, or are you prepared to lose your life?

 

[Bernie Gunther]

If you were walking down the street lawfully and a police officer said, 'stop or I'll shoot', would you stop, or would you keep walking, secure in the knowledge that you were acting lawfully?

Except that's not the situation here. The ship in question was a Turkish vessel in international waters, so the analogy is a burglar with a gun in your bedroom.

 

[dylans]

None of it. My simple point is that all arguments of right and wrong go out the window if it's the middle of the night, and you're staring into the muzzle of a gun held by an angry man barking orders at you.

When you find yourself in that situation, you have to decide whether to pick your battleground, go along with his commands, and fight it later, or are you prepared to lose your life?

Then stop making excuses for the murdering bastards

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Johnny, that isn't what happened.

& daying it twice won't make it so.

It is what happened.

The warnings from Israel began even before the ship left cyprus.

 

[Sesquipedalian]

If you were walking down the street lawfully and a police officer said, 'stop or I'll shoot', would you stop, or would you keep walking, secure in the knowledge that you were acting lawfully?

Again,Johnny,
That is disingenous nonsense.

You can post better than this.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Then stop making excuses for the murdering bastards

I'm not making excuses. I'm talking about what are the realities of an extreme and violent situation.

 

[Proper Tidy]

The right place to respond to his transgressions, is at a court or tribunal, with a lawyer by my side, to help level out the balance of power.

Yeah, because the UN and NATO have always been so fair when it comes to dealing with the occupation of Gaza and the suffering of Palestinians. Great idea Johnny.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Again,Johnny,
That is disingenous nonsense.

You can post better than this.

You'll have to explain how you see this as being 'disingenuous', because it's escaping me how that word applies in the circumstances.

 

[strung out]

i don't really understand what point johnny is trying to make here. maybe he doesn't either.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Yeah, because the UN and NATO have always been so fair when it comes to dealing with the occupation of Gaza and the suffering of Palestinians. Great idea Johnny.

Maybe you're right. So maybe some people thought that their deaths at the hands of the Israeli military might bring about some needed world attention and action.

 

[Maidmarian]

It is what happened.

The warnings from Israel began even before the ship left cyprus.

& the Israelis are not policemen stopping folks on "their" beat !

 

[rioted]

When you find yourself in that situation, you have to decide whether to pick your battleground, go along with his commands, and fight it later, or are you prepared to lose your life?

I bet it wouldn't take much to get you to fall in line. There wouldn't have to be guns involved. The mere sight of a uniform has you on your knees.

 

[quimcunx]

I think the best plan would be to crew all further aid ships entirely with US citizens. Either the Israelis won't kill them or America will start taking a harder line once it's their citizens the Israelis are using their military aid to shoot. win/win.

 

[Sesquipedalian]

Maybe you're right. So maybe some people thought that their deaths at the hands of the Israeli military might bring about some needed world attention and action.

What like suicide aid workers ?
Is that what you mean ?

 

[Proper Tidy]

That would depend on what you are prepared to risk and to lose, and why, if the consequences of not backing down might possibly include your death.

It's a shame you weren't around for the civil rights movement, or locked up in Robben Island with the ANC activists. You could have showed them that the best thing was to lie back and take it, rather than all this fighting back nonsense.

Stoicism is a bag of shit and you are completely in the wrong on this.

 

[Open Sauce]

I'm not making excuses. I'm talking about what are the realities of an extreme and violent situation.

You know, I don't really think you know what you are talking about.

Sure, Israel had threatened them earlier, what should they have done, backed down and gone home? Allow Israel to continue it's illegal punishment because Israel will just commit more crimes?

"They came first...."

 

[Maidmarian]

I'm not making excuses. I'm talking about what are the realities of an extreme and violent situation.

Manufactured by the Israeli action in illegally boarding the ship.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Some more background to Craig Murray's earlier blogpost about the UN Law of the Sea and its relevance to this incident:



http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instruments/english/conventions/8_1_1958_high_seas.pdf

edit: now that was well timed

So some people on another board are trying to claim that this only applies in the case of collisions, due to the preceding paragraphs. What do you think?

 

[dylans]

You know, I don't really think you know what you are talking about.

Sure, Israel had threatened them earlier, what should they have done, backed down and gone home? Allow Israel to continue it's illegal punishment because Israel will just commit more crimes?

"They came first...."

Hey that's not my quote. can you edit it so it doesn't look like my post please

Oh you fixed it ok . Thanks

 

[Proper Tidy]

If you were walking down the street lawfully and a police officer said, 'stop or I'll shoot', would you stop, or would you keep walking, secure in the knowledge that you were acting lawfully?

So Israel is the policeman?

International waters you fuckwit. Israel isn't the copper, Israel is the crim.

 

[quimcunx]

Maybe you're right. So maybe some people thought that their deaths at the hands of the Israeli military might bring about some needed world attention and action.

So now you're saying they set out to die for press attention? That was the real objective?





When are we going to get a list of the dead, I wonder. Surely someone should know by now.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Manufactured by the Israeli action in illegally boarding the ship.

Fine. But once the israelis are on board, you have two choices: do what they ask, or face death.

 

[Maidmarian]

Fine. But once the israelis are on board, you have two choices: do what they ask, or face death.

So it IS ok to shoot them ?

 

[Proper Tidy]

Maybe you're right. So maybe some people thought that their deaths at the hands of the Israeli military might bring about some needed world attention and action.

You're obsessed with Muslims all being reactionaries hellbent on martyrdom. It is bollocks.

It was an aid convoy, involving peace activists from across the world. They weren't trying to make martyrs of themselves. They were trying to break the illegal blockade of Gaza and deliver aid.

 

[1%er]

It is what happened.

The warnings from Israel began even before the ship left cyprus.

What happened was that the Israeli Government and Cabinet meet a number of time to decide what they would do. In the end they decided to make a heaverley armed night-time commando raid on a humanitarian convoy, which appears to have ended in the death of 19 innocent civilians.

This decision was made by the same people that make decision and have control over 200 or 300 nuclear weapons, I see today the Times is reporting,

Three German-built Israeli submarines equipped with nuclear cruise missiles are to be deployed in the Gulf near the Iranian coastline.

 

[Sesquipedalian]

Johnny,
I know you like to answer,
Each post individually,
And you have engaged with me,
Until i asked you,
If you think these victims,
Were suicide aid workers ?