Israeli forces storm Gaza aid ship, and beat people on board. Fatalities reported.

[Sesquipedalian]

There's a rule I live by when it comes to authorities like the cops, who as you know, are armed here. That rule is that if it's late at night, and some cop is being pushy with me, and he's probably overstepping his authority and maybe even breaking the law, my responses will be civil, and I'll do what he tells me to do. The reason is, he has a gun, it's late at night. He has all the power, I have none.

The right place to respond to his transgressions, is at a court or tribunal, with a lawyer by my side, to help level out the balance of power.

Late at night on the high seas, with searchlights playing over the deck, and commandos rapelling down ropes, isn't the time to try and decide matters of international law.

Disingenous nonsense.

 

[quimcunx]

There's a rule I live by when it comes to authorities like the cops, who as you know, are armed here. That rule is that if it's late at night, and some cop is being pushy with me, and he's probably overstepping his authority and maybe even breaking the law, my responses will be civil, and I'll do what he tells me to do. The reason is, he has a gun, it's late at night. He has all the power, I have none.

The right place to respond to his transgressions, is at a court or tribunal, with a lawyer by my side, to help level out the balance of power.

Late at night on the high seas, with searchlights playing over the deck, and commandos rapelling down ropes, isn't the time to try and decide matters of international law.

International law courts have not served Palestine well so far.

Sometimes you have to stand up for what you believe to be right and just even if you risk your life. It doesn't make those who take your life any less wrong that they threatened you beforehand.

 

[Bernie Gunther]

Disingenous nonsense.

Shooting people while committing a crime makes that crime worse, no matter how threatened the criminals in question might feel.

 

[rocketman]

Canuck in this is so full of shit I need to leave the thread so I no longer smell.

 

[1%er]

Late at night on the high seas, with searchlights playing over the deck, and commandos rapelling down ropes, isn't the time to try and decide matters of international law.

Yes you are correct the Israeli Government should have taken legal advice before embarking on this illegal action

 

[quimcunx]

Yes you are correct the Israeli Government should have taken legal advice before embarking on this illegal action

1%er 1: JC3 0.

 

[Sesquipedalian]

Shooting people while committing a crime makes that crime worse, no matter how threatened the criminals in question might feel.

I could not agree more.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Sometimes you have to stand up for what you believe to be right and just even if you risk your life. It doesn't make those who take your life any less wrong that they threatened you beforehand.

This is just what I've been arguing. Some of the people on the ship might have been prepared to forfeit their lives for a cause that they consider just.

 

[gavman]

Yes, they showed the bullies, and they were shot.

commandos kill peaceniks, israel wins then

 

[quimcunx]

Nick Clegg in the guardian.

I haven't read it yet.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/dec/22/lift-the-gaza-blocade-nick-clegg

 

[agricola]

Yeah but when you say 'probably in somewhat justified acts of individual self-defence.' you're not talking about in any legal or moral sense...you're talking about in a fascist sense...as you use military control to force illegal compulsion to a corrupt state's desires...that kind of 'justified'? Jusfied in that the military murderers are suddenly just people as well?

That kind of 'self-defence'....where you are an army with guns against civilians carrying aid? And some of you get a kicking while murdering?

( bit sarky but there's so many posts here...who cares)

Thats not what I am saying at all - I was referring to the entirely human reaction of one of those soldiers to stop the people battering him to fuck from doing so by shooting them. Its not as if those soldiers were considering the individual ethical questions of the action and its socio-historical context whilst being twatted about the body with iron bars.

Of course he/they should never have been put in the situation anyway, and the blame for putting them there of course rests squarely with the IDF, but the point still stands for those individuals that were put into that position.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

commandos kill peaceniks, israel wins then

I don't know who wins, but whatever the score, those people are dead.

 

[Sesquipedalian]

This is just what I've been arguing. Some of the people on the ship might have been prepared to forfeit their lives for a cause that they consider just.

So shooting them is ok then ?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

So shooting them is ok then ?

It is?

 

[Maidmarian]

This is just what I've been arguing. Some of the people on the ship might have been prepared to forfeit their lives for a cause that they consider just.

So the Israelis shot them , just in case ?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

So the Israelis shot them , just in case ?

It seems often in situations like this, the end result is violence.

 

[Sesquipedalian]

It is?

You seem to be suggesting that.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

You seem to be suggesting that.

No I don't.

 

[Proper Tidy]

They were told even before they left Cyprus what would happen. One thing you know about the Israeli military, is that they mean it. The people on the ship knew for a certainty that they were going to be boarded by the Israeli military.

So when faced with a grave injustice and despite legally being in the right vis a vis an aid convoy traveling in international waters, you should back down when faced with a military prepared to behave criminally?

The international law of my dad is bigger than your dad.

What with your position on this and your urge to post pictures of hangings in Iran, perhaps you're not so free of prejudice yourself Johnny boy.

 

[dylans]

It seems often in situations like this, the end result is violence.

This is annoying transparent bollocks.

It's quite simple. The blockade of Gaza is illegal, immoral and wrong.

This flotilla was delivering aid to the victims of that illegal blockade

The Israelis sent armed soldiers to attack and kill them

What more is there?

 

[Maidmarian]

It seems often in situations like this, the end result is violence.

Well , Israel sent armed soldiers to (illegally) board a ship at night ---- yes , I can see that might piss off the people on the convoy yes.

But the soldiers ?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

So when faced with a grave injustice and despite legally being in the right vis a vis an aid convoy traveling in international waters, you should back down when faced with a military prepared to behave criminally?.

That would depend on what you are prepared to risk and to lose, and why, if the consequences of not backing down might possibly include your death.

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

What with your position on this and your urge to post pictures of hangings in Iran, perhaps you're not so free of prejudice yourself Johnny boy.

Yes, one certainly follows from the other.

 

[dylans]

That would depend on what you are prepared to risk and to lose, and why, if the consequences of not backing down might possibly include your death.

Nauseating

 

[Sesquipedalian]

That would depend on what you are prepared to risk and to lose, and why, if the consequences of not backing down might possibly include your death.

Why are you blaming the victims ?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

This is annoying transparent bollocks.

It's quite simple. The blockade of Gaza is illegal, immoral and wrong.

This flotilla was delivering aid to the victims of that illegal blockade

The Israelis sent armed soldiers to attack and kill them

What more is there?

There is the fact that if you continue forward toward the muzzles of guns in spite of repeated warnings to stop, you are either stupid or deaf, or you have considered the consequences of your actions.

Whether the shooting is lawful or unlawful, you will be equally dead.

 

[Maidmarian]

There is the fact that if you continue forward toward the muzzles of guns in spite of repeated warnings to stop, you are either stupid or deaf, or you have considered the consequences of your actions.

Whether the shooting is lawful or unlawful, you will be equally dead.

So might is right ?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

Why are you blaming the victims ?

If you were walking down the street lawfully and a police officer said, 'stop or I'll shoot', would you stop, or would you keep walking, secure in the knowledge that you were acting lawfully?

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

So might is right ?

If you were walking down the street lawfully and a police officer said, 'stop or I'll shoot', would you stop, or would you keep walking, secure in the knowledge that you were acting lawfully?

 

[quimcunx]

This is just what I've been arguing. Some of the people on the ship might have been prepared to forfeit their lives for a cause that they consider just.

Doesn't mean it was what they were looking for. There were 600 people on that one boat. I do not believe that all those 600 thought they were risking their lives for this cause. I can't imagine they managed to find 600 people all willing to die. I suspect they thought that Israel wouldn't actually have the gall to do what they did yesterday to internationals. There are internationals who attend the Palestinian olive harvest precisely on this premise. It will be safer for the Palestinians because the Israelis who take potshots at them won't risk killing an international.