Iranian President suggests 9/11 foul play and cover up

[Donna Ferentes]

Read and learn, dimwit:

To be fair, there's a certain amount of debate about what he actually did and did not say: it's not a good time to trust news stories about Iran. Juan Cole's authoritative blog is a good place to read more.

 

[Yossarian]

Is Professor Steve Jones the scientist who's no more an expert on the field of structural engineering than my cat?

It's the same Steven Jones, who, when he's not being an 'expert' on structural engineering, is an expert on how Jesus Christ visited the Americas in ancient times, as told in the Book of Mormon.

http://www.physics.byu.edu/faculty/jones/rel491/handstext and figures.htm

 

[Bob_the_lost]

I'm having trouble restraining my laughter in the otherwise quiet (and rather chilly) computer lab.

*returns to C++ and stops feeling so cheerful*

 

[fela fan]

Have you lost the ability to research anything?

No wonder you keep posting up such clueless bullshit.

Read and learn, dimwit:

Nah, that's bullshit western filtered stuff.

You learn to read. Read what this iranian president is saying. But you can't can you without your western filter.

It's the same as obl. They all make sense, but not through the anglo-american hegemonic discourse.

Propaganda, fully and totally. Welcome to it.

 

[Yossarian]

So now you agree with Bin Laden, too?

 

[Jonti]

A slur? It's a personal opinion, and one I'm sticking to. Who else but conspiraloons links to hour-long videos about 9/11?

Is that it? That's all you've got? You based your assessment that I'm willing to hail Ahmedinejad as some kind of visionary truth-seeker on the fact that I posted a link to Everybody's Gotta Learn Sometime*? But that video does not even mention Ahmadinejad.

Perhaps you need to calm down.

* link is to video (about an hour long). Apologies to readers on dial-up.

 

[Yossarian]

OK then - why *did* you post up 15 different quotes from Ahmedinajd's letter? Kicks?

 

[Jonti]

I don't have to defend my free speech to you. If you don't like anything I've said, please just quote me and we can talk about it.

Does that seem fair to you?

 

[fela fan]

So now you agree with Bin Laden, too?

I can remember reading stuff with him being quoted by fisk who was out there interviewing the man.

What he said about the US i entirely agreed with. This was pre-911 i might add, for the sensitive sorts...

 

[editor]

But you can't can you without your western filter.

Really.

So what 'filter' have you currently got installed and how does it work in conjunction with your much-mentioned 'mirrors?

 

[fela fan]

Really.

So what 'filter' have you currently got installed and how does it work in conjunction with your much-mentioned 'mirrors?

My filter is no better or worse than yours.

We all have them.

But you seem to think you don't have one of them. That is the point in this sub-discussion.

As for my mirrors, they've not been mentioned by me for a good six months. Good to see how well you remember these concepts of mine. I must be making an impact on your consciousness. You often mention these mirrors.

As for how they work, just look in one mate.

 

[Yossarian]

I don't have to defend my free speech to you. If you don't like anything I've said, please just quote me and we can talk about it.

Does that seem fair to you?

So what is your opinion of Mahmoud Ahmedinejad?

 

[editor]

I must be making an impact on your consciousness. You often mention these mirrors.

Only to laugh at you and prick your impossibly over-inflated ego and cod-spirituality, maaaaan.

 

[fela fan]

So what is your opinion of Mahmoud Ahmedinejad?

Or perhaps more pertinently, where did you get yours from?

Coz you've spectacularly failed to back up your own claims about him.

 

[Yossarian]

What he said about the US i entirely agreed with. This was pre-911 i might add, for the sensitive sorts...

...to kill the Americans and their allies civilians and military - is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem) and the holy mosque (in Makka) from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah'

You agree with this? As a British citizen and a civilian, you agree that it's the duty of every Muslim to kill you?

 

[fela fan]

Only to laugh at you and prick your impossibly over-inflated ego and cod-spirituality, maaaaan.

Y'see, that's why i mentioned them.

Everything you barb at me, describes you most perfectly.

Your ego has been fed massively on this website of yours. I don't blame you, it's easy to fall into the trap man.

Why are you yet again reducing a perfectly good debate into personal crap about other posters?

Any decent thread you come along and trash. Why?

 

[Yossarian]

Or perhaps more pertinently, where did you get yours from?

Coz you've spectacularly failed to back up your own claims about him.

For the second time -

"Some European countries insist on saying that during World War II, Hitler burned millions of Jews and put them in concentration camps," Ahmadinejad said. "Any historian, commentator or scientist who doubts that is taken to prison or gets condemned. Although we don't accept this claim, if we suppose it is true, if the Europeans are honest they should give some of their provinces in Europe—like in Germany, Austria or other countries—to the Zionists and the Zionists can establish their state in Europe. You offer part of Europe and we will support it." - Mahmoud Ahmedinejad, 8 December 2005.

If that's not Holocaust denial, what is?

 

[fela fan]

...to kill the Americans and their allies civilians and military - is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque (in Jerusalem) and the holy mosque (in Makka) from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty Allah, 'and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together,' and 'fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah'

You agree with this? As a British citizen and a civilian, you agree that it's the duty of every Muslim to kill you?

No, i absolutely do not agree with this. And if this is not taken out of context then i totally disagree with what he says.

But everything i've read so far on this thread i've had no problem with.

Can you source this so i can personally vouch it's not been taken out of context? Coz so far the attacks on him have been groundless. But those words you've quoted are of course well out of order.

 

[fela fan]

Although we don't accept this claim,

Are you having problems understanding this bit mate?

 

[Yossarian]

They're Bin Laden's words, from 1998 -

http://www.ict.org.il/articles/fatwah.htm

 

[Yossarian]

Are you having problems understanding this bit mate?

The claim he is saying they're not accepting is the 'claim' made by European countries that Hitler killed millions of Jews.

 

[Jonti]

So what is your opinion of Mahmoud Ahmedinejad?

He's an idiot for denying the Holocaust. That worries me.

But I cannot help but notice you do not explicitly take issue with any of his points that I quoted, yet were outrageously rude to me just for quoting and commenting on them. That worries me too.

In my estimation, we are not going to be able to deal with Mr Ahmedinejad's brand of demagogery except by means of rational and honest discussion.

 

[Yossarian]

Some of the points he raises are valid - but you could probably cherry-pick any political speech by anybody for valid points - even Bush's!

 

[nino_savatte]

Some of the points he raises are valid - but you could probably cherry-pick any political speech by anybody for valid points - even Bush's!

True, this is like lifting a line or a phrase from a book which you quote in an essay, and then tell everyone how you "read and enjoyed" the entire book.

 

[Bob_the_lost]

He's an idiot for denying the Holocaust. That worries me.

But I cannot help but notice you do not explicitly take issue with any of his points that I quoted, yet were outrageously rude to me just for quoting and commenting on them. That worries me too.

In my estimation, we are not going to be able to deal with Mr Ahmedinejad's brand of demagogery except by means of rational and honest discussion.

Even idiots get things right from time to time. Hell, Bush has probably even made a coherent speech at one point.

This thread is not about Mahmoud Ahmedinejad, it's about his letter saying that 9/11 was organised by the US governement (or rather about the paragraph where he does). As such it's only fair to point out the times he was shown to be a jibbering idiot. Such as his denial of the hollocaust, his claim to be bathed in light when addressing the UN and his constant godbothering.

 

[Jonti]

Some of the points he raises are valid - but you could probably cherry-pick any political speech by anybody for valid points - even Bush's!

I daresay.

But I didn't cherry pick. You can see for yourself I worked methodically through the letter quoting and commenting on each of his points, right up to this one ...

September eleven was not a simple operation. Could it be planned and executed without coordination with intelligence and security services – or their extensive infiltration? Of course this is just an educated guess. Why have the various aspects of the attacks been kept secret? Why are we not told who botched their responsibilities? And, why aren't those responsible and the guilty parties identified and put on trial?

Let me ask you a question. It seems only fair. What is the real intended audience for Mr Ahmadinejad's letter? And how would you deal with what he says (except by name calling and similar silliness, I mean)?

 

[Jazzz]

Is Professor Steve Jones the scientist who's no more an expert on the field of structural engineering than my cat?

This is ridiculous DF. Is your cat an expert on nuclear fusion? To suggest that acclaimed physicist Steve Jones is unqualified to comment on the matter is absurd.

Not that Steve "so dodgy that he was distanced from his own university" Jones again?

Funny how you choose to ignore all the other scientists and experts in the entire world in preference to this one (discredited) individual, isn't it? Why is that, Jazzz?

Well this is interesting, because just last month, the university was forced to retract the pathetic smears you
refer to...

A few department chairmen at Jones' university have issued critical statements, though none of these has yet addressed any of the points which Jones made in his paper and at his presentation at BYU. Chairman of the BYU department of Civil and Environmental Engineering, Dr. Miller, is on record stating in an e-mail, "I think without exception, the structural engineering professors in our department are not in agreement with the claims made by Jones in his paper, and they don't think there is accuracy and validity to these claims".

The BYU physics department has also issued a statement: "The university is aware that Professor Steven Jones's hypotheses and interpretations of evidence regarding the collapse of World Trade Center buildings are being questioned by a number of scholars and practitioners, including many of BYU's own faculty members. Professor Jones's department and college administrators are not convinced that his analyses and hypotheses have been submitted to relevant scientific venues that would ensure rigorous technical peer review." The Fulton College of Engineering and Technology department has also added, "The structural engineering faculty in the Fulton College of Engineering and Technology do not support the hypotheses of Professor Jones." [5]

In April 2006, BYU removed those statements from their website following a letter saying that Jones' paper was, indeed, peer reviewed. The letter, written by linguistics professor Richard McGinn to Alan Parkinson, Dean of the Fulton College of Engineering and Technology, also says that McGinn is entitled to file an ethics complaint with the American Society of Civil Engineers against Parkinson for continuing to run those statements. An excerpt from the letter follows:

"...no dean has the right to represent individual faculty, much less the entire faculty of BYU’s Engineering College, on the issue of whether they do (or do not) “support” a colleague’s research, whether published or in-progress. The offending statement is a breach of collegiality, and seems as well to infringe upon Professor Jones’ academic freedom.
Most poignantly, it is inconsistent with the code of ethics of the American Society of Civil Engineers, by which you, as dean of the Engineering College, are bound, given that your web site claims to represent the opinions of an entire faculty of BYU engineers. The ASCR Code states in part:

CANON 5.
g. Engineers shall not maliciously or falsely, directly or indirectly, injure the professional reputation, prospects, practice or employment of another engineer or indiscriminately criticize another's work.

If members of the College disagree with Dr. Jones' assertions in his paper that the official FEMA and NIST reports are inadequate as they stand, then they should be specific in their reasons for supporting those reports, neither of which provides (routine) visualizations for finite element analyses..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_E._Jones

I confess I am also wondering how, if every other scientist disagrees with Jones, why it is they are giving him standing ovations when he lectures on the subject. Any ideas editor?

 

[tarannau]

I confess I am also wondering how, if every other scientist disagrees with Jones, why it is they are giving him standing ovations when he lectures on the subject. Any ideas editor?

Who are 'they' that Jones is speaking to Jazzz? Is it an audience of creditable scientists, qualified in structural engineering and other related subjects. Or is it predominantly, as I suspect, likely to attract conspiracy-fans from near and far, desperate to hear anything which vaguely chimes with their beliefs.

And where do these reports of 'standing ovations' for his contributions come from. Major news sources, or a 9-11 portal for salivating 'Truth Seekers?"

 

[Jonti]

Jones' theories are not proven, of course. But the problem for his critics is that the claim quoted below seems to be entirely accurate. If you know it isn't, I'd be happy for your correction, of course.

I present evidence for the controlled-demolition hypothesis, which is suggested by the available data, testable and falsifiable, and yet has not been analyzed in any of the reports funded by the US government. source

The bigger problem is the collapse of credibility the US and UK Governments now have, following the attack on Iraq. Americans felt the attack was justified given their belief that Saddam Hussein was behind the 9/11 attacks -- it's not true, but Bush has failed to correct the misapprehension. And Blair lied about the danger from Iraq.

But the question of how exactly the Twin Towers and WTC7 collapsed is not the subject of this thread. This is ...

September eleven was not a simple operation. Could it be planned and executed without coordination with intelligence and security services – or their extensive infiltration? Of course this is just an educated guess. Why have the various aspects of the attacks been kept secret? Why are we not told who botched their responsibilities? And, why aren't those responsible and the guilty parties identified and put on trial?

I think the answers are unlikely and because the consequences were congenial to the PNAC agenda. And, quite frankly, I've long been of that view. The ISI had no clue? Nor did the Saudis? And no-one tried to tell the Americans? Hmmm. Well, I guess. If the Prez says so. Oh, wait

And there's lot's of folks who do find it a stretch too far. They say too much about what went down that day (and before) looks kooky. They say it does look as if elements of the US Security Services -- even at the highest level -- did know what was coming down. And they say Everybody's Gotta Learn Sometime*.


* link is to video of about 1 hour's duation

 

[Johnny Canuck3]

I do.

Sometimes, he can be arrogant in a self-effacing manner.