Immigration and the "racist thickos"
- Thread starter Mation
- Start date
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
There are obviously exceptions to the rule
coley
Well-Known Member
No, We are working class,who were put into a position that we had to become 'employers' to protect the people we cared for and are now fighting a rearguard action to protect those same people from being 'cared for' by the types who ran an a home that we can't mention but featured heavily on panorama a couple of years ago, hint it starts with "W"
coley
Well-Known Member
Aye whey, mebbes some on here need to remember that before posting? Unless you are trying to be ironic?There are obviously exceptions to the rule
Saul Goodman
It's all good, man
No irony. 100%... But I don't think he was actually implying that all bosses were cunts. More of a sweeping statement.
Mr.Bishie
pickled egg
coley
Well-Known Member
Sorry, bit touchy at the mo, aye, I usually take pickers comments with a touch of salt and a smile, but the "all bosses" at this moment really stung,
Worrying about the futures of those you employ and those you care for, can result in a fair amount of stress,
Not a problem for multi national corporations/banks,but a very real problem for small employers who know their employees both on a social and personal level.
coley
Well-Known Member
Sorry, bit defensive at the moment, feeling totally Shyte given what's being happening over recent weeks.I know you're w/c. You're not a fuckin BOSS is what I'm saying!
Hollis
bloody furious
Last paragraph here resonates:
How small is small? The impact of immigration on UK wages | National Institute of Economic and Social Research
" Immigration may have some, small, negative impact on wages for some low-paid workers. But the idea that immigration is the main or even a moderately important driver of low pay is simply not supported by the available evidence. Politicians who claim the contrary are either so obsessed with immigration that they are blind to more important issues - or they are merely trying to divert attention from their failure to propose policy measures that would actually make a meaningful difference to the low paid."
How small is small? The impact of immigration on UK wages | National Institute of Economic and Social Research
" Immigration may have some, small, negative impact on wages for some low-paid workers. But the idea that immigration is the main or even a moderately important driver of low pay is simply not supported by the available evidence. Politicians who claim the contrary are either so obsessed with immigration that they are blind to more important issues - or they are merely trying to divert attention from their failure to propose policy measures that would actually make a meaningful difference to the low paid."
butchersapron
Bring back hanging
What's a small negative impact Hollis? For the researchers? For the researched?
friendofdorothy
Solidarity against neoliberalism!
heard about my first brexit racist incident already.
Someone I know (black british woman) was rascially abused this morning by some drunk guy (white man in a suit who looked like he might have been drinking all night) he very loudly anouced that this person and that one and that one (pointing to each black person) and shouting that they would now be up for deportation.
ffs
Someone I know (black british woman) was rascially abused this morning by some drunk guy (white man in a suit who looked like he might have been drinking all night) he very loudly anouced that this person and that one and that one (pointing to each black person) and shouting that they would now be up for deportation.
ffs
ska invita
back on the other side
Just looked on facebook for the first time since the vote was won (wont be going back anytime soon! )... in amongst it all saw two posts from people saying how uncomfortable and nervous they were, one of whom left France with her daughter to come to London because of Le Pen and was musing about what to do next... hopefully there wont be a rise in racist incidents (unlikely), but even without it the mood is sour out here.
Mation
real life adventure worth more than pieces of gold
Realised I didn't address the rest of your post.
I wasn't suggesting it's only about wages, but addressing a legitimate concern that something can be done about progressively would be good, no?
Mation
real life adventure worth more than pieces of gold
Eurgh.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
Bloke in a newsagents yesterday singing "it's a great day for England" at the asian shopkeeper.
Dogsauce
I’ve got Skol but I’m not a Scholar
I've heard of a couple of incidents from friends, one witnessed an Eastern European waitress being asked 'why are you smiling when you're getting deported'.
I think there's generally been a rise in this sort of thing in recent years - I'm wondering if the fact people can more comfortably get away with spouting bigoted shit on social media/btl without being challenged (at least in person) gets them more used to this sort of behaviour, or makes them feel emboldened when others join in, such that it more readily spills into the real world. I think 'Brexit' just gives them a theme for their comments but isn't necessarily the driver of the behaviour.
I don't really know how it gets fixed (other than some aggressive moderating of comments sections or social media, but that involves actually employing people, and can feed that victimisation complex that a lot of bigots thrive on.
SaskiaJayne
Rural Guerrilla
Everybody around me in Essex voted out due to 'immigration'. Speaking to people produced no intelligent argument as to how brexit would stop/moderate immigration. As pointed out in post #4 the type of 'immigration' that so enrages these people has been facilitated not by the EU but by successive UK governments to line the pockets of the wealthy. Holland & France with equally free movement of labour do not have immigration of unskilled eastern Europeans on the scale of the UK because they have strong employment laws so do not have the easy in, easy out insecure zero hours jobs that are normal here.
It is correct that ordinary people are angry. Housing is unaffordable, medical appointments take ages & they see the apparently unbridgeable disconnect between themselves & the 'ruling class' of senior politicians. Speak to older people & they come out with stuff like "bring back Maggie" & "Enoch was right" & so on. They are not receptive to reasoned argument. Angry people never are. It is a waste of time dismissing these people as racist bigots & so on. They can still vote & have done so.
It is pointless talking about second referendums etc. We are where we are & the left have an opportunity here if they are capable of organising it & taking it.
It is correct that ordinary people are angry. Housing is unaffordable, medical appointments take ages & they see the apparently unbridgeable disconnect between themselves & the 'ruling class' of senior politicians. Speak to older people & they come out with stuff like "bring back Maggie" & "Enoch was right" & so on. They are not receptive to reasoned argument. Angry people never are. It is a waste of time dismissing these people as racist bigots & so on. They can still vote & have done so.
It is pointless talking about second referendums etc. We are where we are & the left have an opportunity here if they are capable of organising it & taking it.
Spymaster
Plastic Paddy
The Labour Party is busy shredding Corbyn at the moment and the rest of the left aren't capable of organising a piss up in a brewery.
Left wing exiteers are now blaming left wing remainers for "drowning out their message"!
And the hope was that the tories would rip themselves to pieces?
Yeah, righto.
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Dogsauce
I’ve got Skol but I’m not a Scholar
I live in an area that's seen a large influx of people from Eastern Europe over the past five years or so, apparently this area voted out by three to one (this anecdotally from someone at the count, as I don't think they do official breakdowns by ward).
I don't think wage deflation is the issue here, since it's part of a large city with low unemployment, and local workforce will be distributed across the city (where there's no sense of migrant workers dominating employment - I guess different from small towns that might have few big employers). Some are actually working in middle-class professional jobs (we have graduate engineers at work). We're just a cheap suburb to live in, and migrants have grouped together here (as with many migrant 'waves' in the past).
What I do get is a sense of local people feeling 'swamped' in some kind of cultural sense, the complaints I see are about 'another Polish shop opening' and stuff like that, which seems a strange thing to get upset about.
In context we have the typical recession-hit suburban shopping parade, gone are Boots, the two banks, the independent florist, Superdrug and others. This deterioration happened long before the Polish came (older residents speak fondly of a bustling high street that even had a Woolworths once), closures driven by recession, changes in technology/habits and rising commercial rents. Immediately post-recession half the high street was shuttered, now many of the units are occupied by continental supermarkets. The incoming community isn't responsible for the closure of the old shops, but you can see where people join the dots and become upset. Long-term residents don't like the unfamiliarity of the European supermarkets and don't see it as their space, see it as something lost to them. This also sits alongside other losses such as post offices and many pubs, changes seem to similar areas across the country. Stuff has been taken away, and people are upset.
I don't think wage deflation is the issue here, since it's part of a large city with low unemployment, and local workforce will be distributed across the city (where there's no sense of migrant workers dominating employment - I guess different from small towns that might have few big employers). Some are actually working in middle-class professional jobs (we have graduate engineers at work). We're just a cheap suburb to live in, and migrants have grouped together here (as with many migrant 'waves' in the past).
What I do get is a sense of local people feeling 'swamped' in some kind of cultural sense, the complaints I see are about 'another Polish shop opening' and stuff like that, which seems a strange thing to get upset about.
In context we have the typical recession-hit suburban shopping parade, gone are Boots, the two banks, the independent florist, Superdrug and others. This deterioration happened long before the Polish came (older residents speak fondly of a bustling high street that even had a Woolworths once), closures driven by recession, changes in technology/habits and rising commercial rents. Immediately post-recession half the high street was shuttered, now many of the units are occupied by continental supermarkets. The incoming community isn't responsible for the closure of the old shops, but you can see where people join the dots and become upset. Long-term residents don't like the unfamiliarity of the European supermarkets and don't see it as their space, see it as something lost to them. This also sits alongside other losses such as post offices and many pubs, changes seem to similar areas across the country. Stuff has been taken away, and people are upset.
Guess people will be pretty fucked off when all the old familiar stuff doesn't reappear.
SaskiaJayne
Rural Guerrilla
Yes, why are they doing this? How can supposed intelligent people be so disconnected from the people they need to vote for them, the natural Labour supporters?
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
True, but he really believes that Lexit offers the opportunities he outlines I can't see any reason why he would have voted R.
Odd.
Quite a lot of the talk about "putting a brake on immigration" was probs really a coded message directed at non-European immigration. I suspect that the anecdotal woman (in Bolton?) who said to Farage that he should see how her city had changed wasn't talking (and nor of course was he) about East European supermarkets. So "old-fashioned" racism about skin-colour was presented as something more rational. Paradoxically for them, there might be fewer European immigrants and more of the ones they were really having a go at as a result of 'Brexit'.
As I calm down about the result and reflect, I'm sure most people can be reasoned with and convinced over time. And over time their imagined fears about the latest form that the "others" takes also diminishes: amongst others Irish people, Askenazi Jewish people, Caribbean people, Kenyan Asian people (not in any order) have had their turn at being the bogeyman.
Mercifully the less/un reachable "racist thickos" do seem thin on the ground, most of the time, if marches by and votes for neo-fascists are anything to go by. But neo-fascism has stuck its ugly head above the parapet before and probably will again.
Rightist and Fascist talk and philosophy needs to be dealt with by socialists. And there's always the kerb-stone when all else fails. But the majority of people who voted leave for what socialist leavers think are the wrong reasons are susceptible to rational debate and facts, and shouldn't be written off. Although this "Experts, what do they know?" is a worrying retreat from reason and in itself a form of intolerance.
As I calm down about the result and reflect, I'm sure most people can be reasoned with and convinced over time. And over time their imagined fears about the latest form that the "others" takes also diminishes: amongst others Irish people, Askenazi Jewish people, Caribbean people, Kenyan Asian people (not in any order) have had their turn at being the bogeyman.
Mercifully the less/un reachable "racist thickos" do seem thin on the ground, most of the time, if marches by and votes for neo-fascists are anything to go by. But neo-fascism has stuck its ugly head above the parapet before and probably will again.
Rightist and Fascist talk and philosophy needs to be dealt with by socialists. And there's always the kerb-stone when all else fails. But the majority of people who voted leave for what socialist leavers think are the wrong reasons are susceptible to rational debate and facts, and shouldn't be written off. Although this "Experts, what do they know?" is a worrying retreat from reason and in itself a form of intolerance.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
You seem to be taking issue with something I haven't said - never said being a boss was pleasant. Twat.
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
And hopefully you're doing something about it? It's not just for 'socialists' but for all of us who oppose anti-racist/fascist sentiment. I've been involved in anti-racist actions over the years and I've called it out pretty openly and regularly. I'm obviously not happy about the 'legitimacy' that the referendum might create for some to express their views more openly to those in public - and this needs to be challenged everywhere it's seen. That said, this stuff didn't happen because of the referendum, it was already there.
AnnaKarpik
Queen of all she surveys
I too live in an area with a large number of eastern europeans and more than a few portuguese too; agriculture is the draw here, the landowners import their workforce - the jobs aren't advertised locally - and the migrants get blamed for taking all the seasonal work that used to go to local people. If you can get people to talk to you about how they feel about migration you have the opportunity to put a different slant on things but those who are unhappy will only talk to like-minded people for fear of being stamped on by right-on liberals like me.
crossthebreeze
Well-Known Member
The complaints about shops can be for practical reasons too - quite a few corner shops and newsagents and one or two Pakistani/Bangladeshi supermarkets are now "potraviny"s. If you can't buy familiar food in the new shops, they're not for you, and if that was your local corner shop and now you have to walk further to get things, that can have a real impact . I actually really like some eastern european foods, so I go into the new shops, but some things are baffling - food labels not in english (probably contravening some eu law but who's going to complain), and whearas most british people would have grown up with at least a vague awareness of curry and naan bread even if its not what you eat at home, this isn't the case with eastern european food. So I hear complaints from people who have never said the same about the Pakistani/Bangladeshi supermarkets, for example. They sell lots of pork products in the Eastern European shops too, so anyone who eats halal won't shop there (so its not just white british people that complain). Of course the owners and shoppers in the Potravinys aren't to blame for the economic and social factors which led to the shops that were there before closing down or the previous owners selling up. I'm sure in time there'll be more overlap between the shops in terms of who shops in them and the products they sell, but for now its all very new. Add this to losing the post office, the local library, etc, because of cuts, and the area can seem very different. On the other hand some of the people who I've heard complaining about the new shops are racist little englanders or whatever, but certainly not all of them.
mentalchik
"I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit."
Conversation (i use this term loosely) i had with a customer where i work yesterday...
"isn't it a lovely day ?"
(me) "well it's sunny at least"
"No i meant we've finally got our country back"
(me) "well lets not get into that one shall we"
"We've got our country back from the immigrants, my father didn't die in the war for this country to be run by a bunch of bloody immigrants"
(me) No comment...bye
I have heard a LOT of this type of attitude where i am....just writing it off as racist (although this undoubtably was) and/or thick is stupid and condescending...whether right or wrong headed this is the way a huge no of people actually think about this...this town has also had a large influx of migrants over the last 20 years and it has caused an impact. The attitude in that conversation is not an isolated incident, i hear similar all the time and i'm not sure how it can be combatted !
"isn't it a lovely day ?"
(me) "well it's sunny at least"
"No i meant we've finally got our country back"
(me) "well lets not get into that one shall we"
"We've got our country back from the immigrants, my father didn't die in the war for this country to be run by a bunch of bloody immigrants"
(me) No comment...bye
I have heard a LOT of this type of attitude where i am....just writing it off as racist (although this undoubtably was) and/or thick is stupid and condescending...whether right or wrong headed this is the way a huge no of people actually think about this...this town has also had a large influx of migrants over the last 20 years and it has caused an impact. The attitude in that conversation is not an isolated incident, i hear similar all the time and i'm not sure how it can be combatted !
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Our Queen of course of immigrant stock married to an immigrant. Churchill's mother famously an immigrant. Etc etc and of course people die in war for no reason at all, or for reasons to which they would object more frequently than they do for things like democracy etc. I think what your customer was getting at was well heeled immigrants welcome, wc ones less so. By pointing out inconsistencies in their views maybe you could get them to question their ideas. Maybe.
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