' I Was Wrong ' .....

[MochaSoul]

Ruthlessness and entitlement are on the syllabus at Eton and Harrow.

I'm not a fan of Robespierre either. I'm saying allies need to picked most carefully.

 

[cantsin]

Sure but if he's sensible Corbs will keep a lid on any labour infighting for the next six months at least or at least keep it away from the cameras.

if 'keeping a lid on it ' = buying into this bogus whine for 'unity' by the f*ckwits who've attacked Corbyn for 2 years, that would be v short termist - at the first inevitable bump in the road, they'll be back at it, plotting etc .

Time for a clear out, and look to empower Conference / CLPs for the move towards local democracy and mandatory reselection - any idea that 170 MPs in perpetual, low key opposition to Corbyn and the membership constitutes some kind of plan to go fwd with, is absurd.

 

[frogwoman]

if 'keeping a lid on it ' = buying into this bogus whine for 'unity' by the f*ckwits who've attacked Corbyn for 2 years, that would be v short termist - at the first inevitable bump in the road, they'll be back at it, plotting etc .

Time for a clear out, and look to empower Conference / CLPs for the move towards local democracy and mandatory reselection - any idea that 170 MPs in perpetual, low key opposition to Corbyn and the membership constitutes some kind of plan to go fwd with, is absurd.

I mean to get elected they all need to keep the infighting at a minimum. I'm not familiar with everything that's been going on but that sort of thing plays very badly with voters.

 

[newbie]

if 'keeping a lid on it ' = buying into this bogus whine for 'unity' by the f*ckwits who've attacked Corbyn for 2 years, that would be v short termist - at the first inevitable bump in the road, they'll be back at it, plotting etc .

Time for a clear out, and look to empower Conference / CLPs for the move towards local democracy and mandatory reselection

that will cause division, strife and give the press plenty of opportunity to undermine their current popularity, which is ok but there is also the threat/possibility of another GE at any point;
furthermore, the Boundaery Commission changes are due within the next 12 months, and that will mean every constituency will change and have to have a selection process.

tl:dr 'tent worth it.

 

[cantsin]

that will cause division, strife and give the press plenty of opportunity to undermine their current popularity, which is ok but there is also the threat/possibility of another GE at any point;
furthermore, the Boundaery Commission changes are due within the next 12 months, and that will mean every constituency will change and have to have a selection process.

tl:dr 'tent worth it.

got to move beyond ideas of giving "the press " "opportunity "etc , it's over - two savage terrorist attacks in 4 week campaign, accompanied by an incessant background of "Corbyn/IRA/Hamas" from all sides of "the press", and it didnt even touch the sides.MSM has no where left to go vs Corbo + LP for now, they're following behind, their feeble journos spewing out mea culpas as they tidy up their LinkedINs.

As for 'division and strife'...that was the last 2 years, now's the time for Corbyn and supporters get to work and build for a harmonious future.(purge)

And on that note, BC changes are an ideal point to focus reselection around, and then get it hard wired into CLP processes going fwd.

 

[newbie]

got to move on beyond ideas of giving "the press " "opportunity "etc , it's over - two savage terrorist attacks in 4 week campaign, accompanied by an incessant background of "Corbyn/IRA/Hamas" and it didnt even touch the sides.MSM has no where left to go vs Corbo + LP for now, they're following behind, their feeble journos spewing out mea culpas as they tidy up their LinkedINs.

On the other hand, BC changes are an ideal time to focus reselection around, and then get it hard wired into CLP processes going fwd.

I hope you're right but tbh I don't think I agree. The 'Corbyn loves terrorists' campaign didn't work, largely (IMO) because it was so preposterous. But that doesn't mean the MSM has lost all influence. In an era of fake news there is still as much/little trust in them as ever.

I reckon he's vulnerable to a somewhat lower key campaign based on his fitness to lead and the antics of his supporters. Enough to put him on the defensive and poison the well in preparation for another GE.

 

[elbows]

I hope you're right but tbh I don't think I agree. The 'Corbyn loves terrorists' campaign didn't work, largely (IMO) because it was so preposterous. But that doesn't mean the MSM has lost all influence. In an era of fake news there is still as much/little trust in them as ever.

They havent lost all influence but their influence has certainly diminished over the years, or at the very least some myths about how much influence they had in the past have been busted.

Aspects of the internet have increased the visible influence that those who, in the old print days, were never in a position to enjoy 'the freedom of the press by owning one'. But I wouldnt get too carried away with this because I think the influence of people we actually know in real life was always there, but it was informal and verbal. The internet, by committing such stuff to the written word and other visuals, makes it more obvious, more concrete to those in the traditional media who would previously sneered at it as being immeasurable, ignorant pub talk etc. Like the way the history of people who did not commit their history to the written word receives a lot less attention compared to the endless tripe written about those at the top through the ages.

 

[killer b]

The Corbyn/terrorism stuff did work, as did the Corbyn/Nukes stuff - ask anyone who spent any time on the doorstep for Labour in the past few months. It just wasn't the killer blow they thought it would be - they were simply overwhelmed in many places by the Corbyn Is The Absolute Boy stuff.

 

[cantsin]

The Corbyn/terrorism stuff did work, as did the Corbyn/Nukes stuff - ask anyone who spent any time on the doorstep for Labour in the past few months. It just wasn't the killer blow they thought it would be - they were simply overwhelmed in many places by the Corbyn Is The Absolute Boy stuff.

with greatest increase in LP vote at an election since ww2, we can only assume the impact was marginal, and even more so amongst the young / first time voters who played an imptnt role, and seem to have to little engagement with MSM ( for want of better acronym. )

Either way, suspect Schneider and Milne not exactly sat there frozen with fear at prospect of ' Division in the LP' media gubbins come October / at next GE.

 

[phillm]

As my maths teacher back in the day after a test would come into the classroom with a sneering smile on his face as he prowled the desks ..."how the mighty have fallen".

 

[killer b]

with greatest increase in LP vote at an election since ww2, we can assume only assume the impact was marginal, and even more so amongst the young / first time voters who played an imptnt role, and seem to have to little engagement with MSM ( for want of better acronym. )

Either way, suspect Schneider and Milne not exactly sat there frozen with fear at prospect of ' Division in the LP' media gubbins in October / at next GE.

there was a huge increase in the tory vote too, especially in working class areas where those attack ads were targeted.

The Labour campaign was remarkable, and achieved way beyond what anyone expected - but the Tory attack lines did work, just not well enough - mainly because all they had was the attack lines.

 

[elbows]

there was a huge increase in the tory vote too, especially in working class areas where those attack ads were targeted.

The Labour campaign was remarkable, and achieved way beyond what anyone expected - but the Tory attack lines did work, just not well enough - mainly because all they had was the attack lines.

The collapse of the UKIP vote muddied the waters in regard to what influences were at work in the increased tory vote.

 

[cantsin]

there was a huge increase in the tory vote too, especially in working class areas where those attack ads were targeted.

The Labour campaign was remarkable, and achieved way beyond what anyone expected - but the Tory attack lines did work, just not well enough - mainly because all they had was the attack lines.

True, and I think it's been shown that the youth factor is being slightly overstated when looked at nationally - plus, longer term, a more positive turn of the economic cycle can shift the ground beneath what can be, by its very nature, a more transitory voting bloc , ie "youth vote".

 

[killer b]

The collapse of the UKIP vote muddied the waters in regard to what influences were at work in the increased tory vote.

It's a very mixed picture, yes. But I think it's a mistake to write off the scare campaign as simply not working - it had an impact. It's impact has been partly concealed by the more successful campaign Labour ran, but it shouldn't be ignored altogether. The UKIP vote only partially collapsed into the tories - some of it went to Labour. The Labour share could have been bigger had there been a way found to neutralise the IRA & Nuke stuff a bit better (I think they did a great job of neutralising Brexit).

 

[elbows]

plus, longer term, a more positive turn of the economic cycle can shift the ground beneath what can be, by its very nature, a more transitory voting bloc , ie "youth vote".

They've been consistently told for many years now that their generation has been screwed and they could look forward to lower standards of living etc, with no prospect of this changing. Told that this was not just a temporary cycle thing.

 

[newbie]

fair enough, I was being too broad brush saying it 'didn't work'. And given May's new bedfellows, and the Saudi/Qatar fuss, I don't suppose that particular attack will be deployed again.

 

[elbows]

It's a very mixed picture, yes. But I think it's a mistake to write off the scare campaign as simply not working - it had an impact. It's impact has been partly concealed by the more successful campaign Labour ran, but it shouldn't be ignored altogether. The UKIP vote only partially collapsed into the tories - some of it went to Labour. The Labour share could have been bigger had there been a way found to neutralise the IRA & Nuke stuff a bit better (I think they did a great job of neutralising Brexit).

Its hard to judge how much of an impact it had beyond shoring up some of the tory base, much of it was preaching to the converted and I've no way to measure the extent it reached beyond that.

I would love to know what proportion of the ex-UKIP voters simply returned to the party they supported before they switched to UKIP - I seem to recall that when UKIP were performing well it was a bit of a controversial issue on u75 as to how many labour voters they were or were not attracting, so I'm not surprised that the reverse happened this time and is still hard to get a handle on.

 

[Vintage Paw]

The collapse of the UKIP vote muddied the waters in regard to what influences were at work in the increased tory vote.

While no one wants to see those twats back again, there will likely be a bit of a UKIP bump off the back of May's brexit weakness, which will I expect take more from the Tories than it will from Labour, since any previous UKIP voters who came back to Labour wouldn't have done so had brexit been the main priority for them. They may get a smattering from Labour, but it'll be from the Tories they gain most.

We won't see UKIP returning to what they had previously, I don't think, but even a small amount could help lose the Tories a few more seats next time.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I agree that Yyvette Cooper is a despicable wanker for the reasons you outlined, but she hasn't been "invited back in" to the Shadow Cabinet by Corbyn. All thats happened is that the Telegraph has quoted "sources close to Yvette Cooper" as saying she would "consider" being shadow home secretary if it was offered to her (not just a role in the Shadow Cabinet, Shadow Home Secretary ffs!). Its a load of rubbish.

It's manouvering. "Friends of" Chuka have been doing similar, the rancid cocksuckers.

 

[ViolentPanda]

must admit, had forgotten about Macron cheerleader Penny Red for a while - now, supported by Helen Lewis, she's accusing "the left" of bullying her over lack of support for Corbyn ( which would be out of order - but as so often in these kind of situations, can only see robust critique at worst - may be missing stuff ) - looking back on her twitter, its v weird how she seems to say NOTHING relating to Corbyn, for weeks and weeks...obvs, she was busy at her mate Milo's gigs etc, but unless she's been furiously deleting, after the years of talking the talk, seems our fave lifestyle anarchist just wasn't feeling the Corb.. .

Amazing how often La Pennionara plays the victim. She even did it on here, before accusing SpineyNorman of being a racist, and generally dissing Urban. She's needs to thicken her skin, and stop playing that card every time someone holds her to account for talking shit.

 

[ViolentPanda]

You can pretend I said nothing else, if you want.



If you think of his apology as his starting point. I don't and I obviously failed to put that across. I have my own doubts whether it'll all have been just another monumental waste of my time and effort. Some because I don't think the movement has sufficient legs to stand on and develop further. But my highest doubts relate to the likes of OJ. At the slightest importunity, it may well be people in pulpits such as Owen Jones', who can muster much better words than mine and reach an awful lot of other people, and who, although having a foot in there and another within the movement, as he puts it, will fail it and probably at most crucial of junctures as was the case with OJ... and because they have so much exposure and polpularity they'll end up sticking whatever knife inflicted further in.
It's more than mere forgiving/forgetting. It's a question of trust in him as a friendly ally.

Give me Gary Younge any time over Owen Jones.

Gary Younge doesn't write many op-eds, whereas Jones does. Younge also almost always writes considered pieces that are based on research, not just based on his opinion, whereas Jones is happy to write stuff that he can't really support, except via his reputation as a member of the commentariat.

But yeah, Younge over Jones any time, but Jones over Penny every time, too.

 

[MochaSoul]

Gary Younge doesn't write many op-eds, whereas Jones does. Younge also almost always writes considered pieces that are based on research, not just based on his opinion, whereas Jones is happy to write stuff that he can't really support, except via his reputation as a member of the commentariat.

But yeah, Younge over Jones any time, but Jones over Penny every time, too.

Aditya Chakrabortty is another one who has nothing to repent over.
I got put off Penny over identity politics (enough of that in The Guardian as it is). Because I give the New Statesman a fairly wide berth it's been fairly easy to avoid her.

Next time useless idiot Jones starts preaching anti-semitism at the movement again, I'll keep bearing in mind his record.
How the Israel lobby is using Owen Jones

 

[The Pale King]

Aditya Chakrabortty is another one who has nothing to repent over.
I got put off Penny over identity politics (enough of that in The Guardian as it is). Because I give the New Statesman a fairly wide berth it's been fairly easy to avoid her.

Next time useless idiot Jones starts preaching anti-semitism at the movement again, I'll keep bearing in mind his record.
How the Israel lobby is using Owen Jones

Chakrabortty is excellent, he and Younge are the only writers worth reading on that paper

 

[DaveCinzano]

I'm not a fan of Robespierre either. I'm saying allies need to picked most carefully.

A Dantonysta, I knew it

 

[killer b]

My own mea culpa: I was about as wrong as can be on this one. The Corbyn & supporters social media & meme work this election has been brilliant.

It's right though. His social media is appalling.

 

[ska invita]

"
Look. It’s definitely tough to hold your hand up as a Labour centrist and say you didn’t get everything right, especially when you’re the kind of person who’s always really certain of your intellectual and political magnificence, but just a splash of self-awareness and graciousness would help ease the pain.

I was at a party on Saturday with lots of Blairites. Most people said they had been shocked but then re-discovered the genuine simple joy of watching the Tories suffer humiliation in real time live on telly. For others, it wasn’t so easy. I’ve had people who always counselled wisely and calmly “never fight the electorate”, now declaring voters stupid. And some who always said the issue was unelectability, now feel it’s the idea of him having a shot which they can’t bear. Moderates need to be magnanimous. "
I’m eating humble pie over Corbyn. Now Labour’s other ranks must unite

Ayesha Hazarika was a senior Labour adviser to Harriet Harman and Ed Miliband and is now a political commentator

 

[ska invita]

come in articul8

 

[Treacle Toes]

"
Look. It’s definitely tough to hold your hand up as a Labour centrist and say you didn’t get everything right, especially when you’re the kind of person who’s always really certain of your intellectual and political magnificence, but just a splash of self-awareness and graciousness would help ease the pain.

I was at a party on Saturday with lots of Blairites. Most people said they had been shocked but then re-discovered the genuine simple joy of watching the Tories suffer humiliation in real time live on telly. For others, it wasn’t so easy. I’ve had people who always counselled wisely and calmly “never fight the electorate”, now declaring voters stupid. And some who always said the issue was unelectability, now feel it’s the idea of him having a shot which they can’t bear. Moderates need to be magnanimous. "
I’m eating humble pie over Corbyn. Now Labour’s other ranks must unite

Ayesha Hazarika was a senior Labour adviser to Harriet Harman and Ed Miliband and is now a political commentator

This FAKENEWS humble pie isn't humble enough.

 

[cantsin]

"
Look. It’s definitely tough to hold your hand up as a Labour centrist and say you didn’t get everything right, especially when you’re the kind of person who’s always really certain of your intellectual and political magnificence, but just a splash of self-awareness and graciousness would help ease the pain.

I was at a party on Saturday with lots of Blairites. Most people said they had been shocked but then re-discovered the genuine simple joy of watching the Tories suffer humiliation in real time live on telly. For others, it wasn’t so easy. I’ve had people who always counselled wisely and calmly “never fight the electorate”, now declaring voters stupid. And some who always said the issue was unelectability, now feel it’s the idea of him having a shot which they can’t bear. Moderates need to be magnanimous. "
I’m eating humble pie over Corbyn. Now Labour’s other ranks must unite

Ayesha Hazarika was a senior Labour adviser to Harriet Harman and Ed Miliband and is now a political commentator

got to say, she's dull as dishwater whenever I see her on the telly, even for a Centrist smart ass....hard to think MSM is going to be queuing up for more of the same going fwd, now she's got her inevitable ' I was wrong / lets unify' gubbins out of the way

 

[MochaSoul]

This FAKENEWS humble pie isn't humble enough.

It's not. She lobbed it all at Corbynistas in the latter pat of the article.
Polly Toynbee was on twitter earlier saying neo-liberal centrism wasn't even a thing and being told she represented it. In between being in denial and accusing Corbyn supporters of killing free speech, they haven't worked out their economic theories only mean more of the misery they accuse the tories of inflicting on the populous and people are tired of it. Humble pie is to recognise the full extent of the folly of the last 30 years. They are not yet prepared to do it.