Hundreds of workers protest against Italians/Foreigners 'taking jobs'...

[treelover]

Free The Peeps, ex urbanite

 

[durruti02]

muppet .. and don't fuck about with qoutes ..

 

[belboid]

anyway, back to gaza and palestine, anti-semitism, now


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/03/venezuela-jews-chavez-synagogue-vandalised

stop trying to derail your own thread ya daft twat

 

[durruti02]

No I'm not. I'm explicitly trying to avoid anyone being first or second in line so that divisions do not arise between workers

so on what basis SHOULD jobs be allocated?

- at the moment allocation is by the neo lib eral companies involved .. and they recruit globally

- the unions/locals are demanding union input and local recruitment

so what PRACTICALLY do you propose???

-that ALL jobs in this country are advertised from Derry to Donetsk?

-that there should be a qouta of non UK citizens in all jobs/ workplaces to be 'fair' and internationalist and non divisive??

your position practically makes NO sense

 

[Spion]

- engaging that group of people in a way that makes those theories relevant -

With that in mind I'm looking forward now to assessing:

a) the results of the strike, how they match up to the strikers' demands and how those compare to what socialists should/did argue for in such a case. I'll get onto this myself in the next day or two.
b) the effectiveness of the Socialist Party's presence at the heart of the dispute. Perhaps you could kick us off there with an explanation of what the SP argued for on the strike cttee, which arguments it won and which it lost. Which of the strike's demands were the SP's and which did it try to change and fail?

I'm keen to hear how the SP 'made those theories relevant'.

 

[durruti02]

there's certianly some evidence of racism/xenophobia among some - SOME - of the strikers, which should be extra reason for the left to support the strike, because otherwise the bnp are going to fill that vaccuum and more left leaning workers will find themselves pretty isolated.

for fucks sake, not everyone knows as much about politics as we do, (which is not much tbf) - not all of them are likely to have spent time debating the finer points of socialism, like most people they probably have their views but are apolitical, some are probably mildly prejudiced, but thats hardly a reason to cry racism at all of the strikers and push them into the arms of the fash ..

spot on

 

[brasicritique]

Free The Peeps, ex urbanite

Free The Peeps thanks TL dear lord and here i was thinking this issue had started to get people to talk about the time bomb the race to the bottom is creating still i have only been on indymedia once and it was pretty obvious that there concept of people is basically borgy borgy

 

[durruti02]

or to put it another way:

he held an opinion, was told it wasn't the right one, and 'corrected' it

''

BB .. MC5 clearly came out, yesterday, in clear support of the strike and against the position of the swp

( 5 days late but better late than never .. he always said he was thinking about it .. spion clearly opposes )

 

[durruti02]

with the deal arranged at Lindsey, it sure blows a hole in Brown's and Nl's 'flexible labour market', now hopefully other workers will take a close look at T&C and the minimum wage, etc.

i would like to think it can be generalised into an attack on all the neo liberal Uk and EU labour changes of the last few years

 

[brasicritique]

there's certianly some evidence of racism/xenophobia among some - SOME - of the strikers, which should be extra reason for the left to support the strike, because otherwise the bnp are going to fill that vaccuum and more left leaning workers will find themselves pretty isolated.
..

well when you look around urban these days are you really suprised that left leaning workers might find themselves isolated ?

for fucks sake, not everyone knows as much about politics as we do, (which is not much tbf) - not all of them are likely to have spent time debating the finer points of socialism, like most people they probably have their views but are apolitical, some are probably mildly prejudiced, but thats hardly a reason to cry racism at all of the strikers and push them into the arms of the fash ..

exactly so insecure middleclass galloway wannabes take note

 

[Talkie Toaster]

treelover, you seem quite reluctant to address uncomfortable questions..

I'll repeat again:

Front page of Socialist worker attacks the strikers, wonder how many that will sell this week

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/graphics/2009/2137/issue2137.pdf

Don't forget to answer the question that both cantsin & I asked you a few pages ago.

What part of that article do you think attacks the strikers?

If you can't answer this time I'll just assume you either didn't read the article or assumed that no-one here would ...

 

[audiotech]

BB .. MC5 clearly came out, yesterday, in clear support of the strike and against the position of the swp

( 5 days late but better late than never .. he always said he was thinking about it .. spion clearly opposes )

Get a grip.

It's not as though anyone involved in the strike (anyone at all even) gives a fuck about what is thought and said here, despite brassicritique thinking otherwise.

 

[Knotted]

Just like to say, I've been falling the strike and the thread but I haven't much to add. Others have said what I would say much better than I would have. Its terrible to see unemployed workers being overlooked by tight-arsed management and its great to see an organised response. Its gone better than I could have hoped.

 

[durruti02]

treelover, you seem quite reluctant to address uncomfortable questions..

I'll repeat again:

Don't forget to answer the question that both cantsin & I asked you a few pages ago.

What part of that article do you think attacks the strikers?

If you can't answer this time I'll just assume you either didn't read the article or assumed that no-one here would ...

1) the article assumes the strike is nationalist/racist when it is not

2) it brings in, idiotically, Mosley and the NF forcing asian out of jobs when these things are almost totally irrelevent

3)it says there has been an attempt to play the race card .. there has NOT

4) it says 'but what is less clear is why the unions .. .. have focused their attention on foreign workers..' when this is simply NOT true!!! and then responds to this false story!!

5) it says workers should demand equal wages etc .. as if they are NOT .. when clearly they are

so all in all the SWP have dishonestly created a lie of this dispute and then responded with their crass cliched anti racism when it is entirely unneccessary

what these workers in the first major anti neo liberal dispute need is simple support at this stage ..

the SWP position is a fucking disgrace

 

[snadge]

the SWP position is a fucking disgrace

agreed.

They were trying to collect political gain and it has blown up in their faces, typical MC swappie tactics

 

[Talkie Toaster]

I didn't ask you, but thanks for your input. I disagree with most of your points anyway as I'm sure will anyone who reads it without twisting the words to suite their own little games.

 

[brasicritique]

Get a grip.

It's not as though anyone involved in the strike (anyone at all even) gives a fuck about what is thought and said here, despite brassicritique thinking otherwise.

Actually the issue the strike has raised has gone beyond the strike and you know that wannabe political movers and shakers visist these boards you donkey shite still thats all you ever do is attack non middle class posters as per usual

 

[brasicritique]

agreed.

They were trying to collect political gain and it has blown up in their faces, typical MC swappie tactics

no suprise there then looking around the snobish menatality on these boards

 

[durruti02]

I didn't ask you, but thanks for your input. I disagree with most of your points anyway as I'm sure will anyone who reads it without twisting the words to suite their own little games.

i honestly answered your questions and your reply with snide comment .. IF you disagree with what i wrote please say why

 

[brasicritique]

i honestly answered your questions and your reply with snide comment .. IF you disagree with what i wrote please say why

yes you answered posters questions however with regards to his other point poor innocent durruti2

 

[Talkie Toaster]

None of your points actually address the question I asked.

1) the article assumes the strike is nationalist/racist when it is not

It does not.

2) it brings in, idiotically, Mosley and the NF forcing asian out of jobs when these things are almost totally irrelevent

Not irrelevant, just pointing out that the slogan used by Brown was also used by some pretty dodgy characters.

3)it says there has been an attempt to play the race card .. there has NOT

This is clearly a reference to the paragraph above and not aimed at the strikers.

4) it says 'but what is less clear is why the unions .. .. have focused their attention on foreign workers..' when this is simply NOT true!!! and then responds to this false story!!

The article is somewhat unclear here as it contradicts itself a few paragraphs down. Still, this is not an "attack" on the strikers.

5) it says workers should demand equal wages etc .. as if they are NOT .. when clearly they are

Just because they're saying that workers should demand this, the implication that they are not is only in your mind.

Seems that you just want to see what you want to so you can witter on about the SWP. I read the article as a way of moving the debate away from "British Jobs for British Workers", which many can see the downsides of, on to a more concrete footing of the bosses fucking over all the workers regardless of nationality. It managed to do this without attacking the workers as far as I could tell.

... I'd still like to hear treelovers response to the question posed ... but he/she seems to somewhat disappear whenever I post it up again.

e2a: I'm not some kind of SWP fan, but I read the article and felt that treelover's posting of was unrepresentative of my reading of the same article - hence why I asked him to clarify.

 

[badco]

I heard on the news that the union had advised strikers to return back to work after 100 jobs were to be offered to British workers


Now what were these protests about again???

 

[badco]

Ifighting against job losses and for more jobs to be created - but not to exclude other nationalities from work.

Oh stop lying

 

[audiotech]

Actually the issue the strike has raised has gone beyond the strike and you know that wannabe political movers and shakers visist these boards you donkey shite still thats all you ever do is attack non middle class posters as per usual

aww, did dums.

 

[audiotech]

I heard on the news that the union had advised strikers to return back to work after 100 jobs were to be offered to British workers


Now what were these protests about again???

The employers taking the piss.

 

[tangentlama]

The thing is, it's not just the nationalist sentiments of 'some of those involved' or 'cack-handed sloganeering'.

The strike has a list of demands as agreed by a mass meeting, and the only strike demand that has anything to say about who should be employed in future at the site - THE main issue here, no? - explicitly limits that to 'locally skilled' labour. Then there's the statement of the local union leader* on the BBC video who was asked 'What will it take to get you back to work?', to which he replied, "I believe the protesters would like to have access to the jobs and when all local labour and all local skilled labour has been exhausted then they should move further afield. The last resort should be to employ European labour."

How else am I supposed to take that other than BJ4BW?

I am totally against undercutting of labour rates and attacks on conditions. I think there should be strikes against redundancies and strikes and demonstrations for massive injections of funds by the bosses to pay for jobs and training - without discrimination on grounds of nationality . But that is not what this strike is about - it is explicitly for preferential treatment of British workers. If it can be transformed by ditching the local stipulation on employment preferences then fine, but that hasn't happened yet.

I stand by these workers in the sense that I think their anger is justified at redundancy and attacks on working conditions, but I do not support a strike aimed at favouring British over other workers.

Wanted to post this, due to misrepresentation of Spion's stance.

Plus, if the Kenny in that BBC interview, is Kenny Ward the Unite shop steward, then he's successfully managed to move on from the LJFLW stance and encapsulate the real cause of the redundancies and sub-sub-contract undercutting in his latest speech, which means these guys can stand a real chance of changing the situation both here in UK and in the rest of Europe.

I'm sure now that other Unions in Europe won't find this refined position 'Ugly' as the CGIL initially did, and still have hope for a cross-europe, multi-Union solidarity to confront these issues full-on, because this is only a small victory, and the beginning of a long fight to change working practices of these contract/agencies.

 

[elbows]

So does the fact that wildcat strikes spread and seem to have gotten some sort of result, change the balance of power in this country a little?

Was capital & friends very happy with the anti-union anti-strike laws that have ben brought in over the decades, but are now facing up to the idea that the laws might be no barrier to this sort of application of power by workers?

Or do these wildcat strikes make little difference to that sort of thing? Im not very clued up about union & strike laws and how much they were successful at neutering worker power in the last decade or 2, so I dont know if the present action has set any precedents.

Also do the new industry code of conduct things that the government have been going on about today, seem to be any good?

 

[badco]

The employers taking the piss.

I thought the gist of this thread was that the strikes were about the rights of the foreign workers i.e not receiving equall pay etc and not about the jobs been allocated,or not, to British workers

I'm confused

 

[ymu]

One of the Portuguese workers was interviewed on BBC News just now. He reckons they were being paid around 1000 euro/month less than British workers.

Now, what was that strike about again?

 

[badco]

Now, what was that strike about again?

Well due to the resolution of the strike it would seem it was about British workers not getting British jobs