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How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

elbows said:
Exaro reports that 'Harry' (Haroon Kasir), the former co-manager of the guesthouse had his house raided, though he wasnt arrested.
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Yes, note they also hinted at some indecent film type stuff he was in court for...

Anyway, Sunday People, today have this - obv sourced from you know here due to the mistake about the far-right politician being NF.
 
Henke has been digging some more and believes that he's now established a link between the tory party and Elm House;

The Conservative Campaign for Homosexual Equality ” strongly recommended ” the Elm House guest house as a venue for its members in 1982 at time of alleged suppressed paedophile scandal, Exaro News ( http://www.exaronews.com/articles/4816/tory-group-recommended-guest-house-in-met-paedo-probe ) and the Sunday People ( http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/paedo-brothel-elm-guest-house-1558001) reveal today.
Investigations by me and former Guardian colleague David Pallister have uncovered an old Conservative CHE newsletter which urged its membership from London and the Home Counties to use the facilities including the sauna and video room.
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Messy.

More here.

E2A : Henke is also gunning for the LD members of Richmond Council who now claim not to have known anything of the activities at Elm House:-
http://davidhencke.wordpress.com/20...questions-for-the-london-borough-of-richmond/

Good work from Henke et al.
 
Minnie_the_Minx said:
Wishful thinking
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I dont know why you say that. The most cynical, vocal people on the net in relation to these cases didnt think things would even get to this point, so I wont be using them as a guide as to how far matters may now proceed. Its true that there are a number of not so sinister reasons why some people who have appeared on certain lists may not end up being touched by this investigation, and I expect there will be people who attribute this to sinister causes rather than other possibilities such as some of them having used the guest house without using anybody underage.

I think what the cynics may be missing is that its not actually in the interests of the state etc to protect a number of specific individuals involved in these old scandals any more. They actually need some prosecutions to restore some credibility and prevent people from building a fresh tale of coverup and power abuse that undermines the system as a whole. Whether they will actually find any suitable candidates or whether any other factors can still trump these concerns is open to question, but I have no reason to think I already know the answer to that question at this point. The only thing I'm reasonably sure of is that some people are never going to be satisfied - those who have developed the most extreme views about the extent of the abuse and coverups will never be satisfied because they have probably built up a plot in their minds that goes well beyond what actually happened, and therefore stands no chance of being exposed in full because some of it is fiction. Hopefully the prosecutable truth will still be big enough to satisfy most though.
 
elbows said:
I dont know why you say that. The most cynical, vocal people on the net in relation to these cases didnt think things would even get to this point, so I wont be using them as a guide as to how far matters may now proceed. Its true that there are a number of not so sinister reasons why some peoples who have appeared on certain lists may not end up being touched by this investigation, and I expect there will be people who attribute this to sinister causes rather than other possibilities such as some of them having used the guest house without using anybody underage.

I think what the cynics may be missing is that its not actually in the interests of the state etc to protect a number of specific individuals involved in these old scandals any more. They actually need some prosecutions to restore some credibility and prevent people from building a fresh tale of coverup and power abuse that undermines the system as a whole. Whether they will actually find any suitable candidates or whether any other factors can still trump these concerns is open to question, but I have no reason to think I already know the answer to that question at this point. The only thing I'm reasonably sure of is that some people are never going to be satisfied - those who have developed the most extreme views about the extent of the abuse and coverups will never be satisfied because they have probably built up a plot in their minds that goes well beyond what actually happened, and therefore stands no chance of being exposed in full because some of it is fiction. Hopefully the prosecutable truth will still be big enough to satisfy most though.
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Still seems like only skimming the surface and considering how widespread and how many people are involved, not that many arrests
 
Minnie_the_Minx said:
Still seems like only skimming the surface and considering how widespread and how many people are involved, not that many arrests
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An understandable stance to take, but I simply have to moderate my impatience for a number of reasons:

Police investigations do not exactly proceed swiftly. Look how spread out the arrests over phone hacking & public servants selling things to the press are.

Just because we've read a bunch of stuff that appears to build a compelling case, doesnt mean we are in possession of the facts or are well clued up about the truth. We've had glimpses of things, stuff that suggests that a closer look should be taken, but you saw how much more complicated and messy the North Wales stuff became on further inspection, including how fresh allegations from other sources on the net started to paint a victim as a perpetrator. We can poke at the detail of that all we like and I assume we would not reach a consensus, but I would hope we could at least share the conclusion that our initial confidence that were fit to judge and smell the detailed truth for ourselves based on what was placed before us on the net or in the press was misplaced. I am not one of the victims, I was not there. So I wont be deciding whether justice has finally been done or not. People have been waiting a disgusting amount of time for these matters to be adequately addressed, so Im not going to cynically write off the whole process now just because its going to take more months or years to look at it properly.
 
Ta. Channel 4 news have pretty consistently been the best tv news when it comes to covering all the abuse stories post Savile.

Thanks to a comment in the text of the channel 4 news story I did some digging and turned up some accounts from an apparent Elm Guest House victim in the Sunday People:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/first-victim-of-elm-guest-house-1572073

There is quite a lot of detail in the story so I wont attempt to quote all of the important stuff, but here is a sample which adds to detail I'm sure some here have already heard about but that I'm sure we cannot talk about properly just now for legal reasons, because the fat man isnt the dead one:

One photograph is said to show a former Tory Cabinet minister in a sauna with a naked 14-year-old boy.
Dave claims one man he met at the guest house arranged for him to visit his flat where he was groomed into performing sex acts, then handed a couple of pounds “pocket money” to keep him coming back.
Dave said: “I can still see the guy’s face now. He was posh and I have since seen him on television.
“He was very fat. He said he didn’t live far away and told me ‘If you’re passing by that way come and see me’.
“He would give me money. We got no - pocket money at the home and I wanted some.
“That makes it sound like I made a choice but it was abuse.”
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Two VIPs named as regular users of the Elm are MI5 traitor Anthony Blunt who died in 1983 and Cyril Smith, the former Liberal MP for Rochdale who died in 2010.
On Friday, after studying a picture of Smith, Dave said the overweight politician was not the “fat man” who had abused him.
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elbows said:
Ta. Channel 4 news have pretty consistently been the best tv news when it comes to covering all the abuse stories post Savile.

Thanks to a comment in the text of the channel 4 news story I did some digging and turned up some accounts from an apparent Elm Guest House victim in the Sunday People:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/first-victim-of-elm-guest-house-1572073

There is quite a lot of detail in the story so I wont attempt to quote all of the important stuff, but here is a sample which adds to detail I'm sure some here have already heard about but that I'm sure we cannot talk about properly just now for legal reasons, because the fat man isnt the dead one:
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I thought that the nearest that Paraic O'Brien came to giving a clue to the trajectory of investigation was the clear mention of the linkage to The Conservative Campaign for Homosexual Equality's leaflet extolling the virtues of Elm House, including its own video sweet.:(:facepalm:
 
A Daily Mail article on the subject which I have presently misplaced carried the suggestion, which I'm sure wont surprise anyone and isnt brand new, that the really incriminating photos were destroyed long ago, possibly when special branch got involved. And that therefore for justice to be done now, the police require multiple victims to talk to them with information that corroborates the allegations against specific people in detail.
 
elbows said:
A Daily Mail article on the subject which I have presently misplaced carried the suggestion, which I'm sure wont surprise anyone and isnt brand new, that the really incriminating photos were destroyed long ago, possibly when special branch got involved. And that therefore for justice to be done now, the police require multiple victims to talk to them with information that corroborates the allegations against specific people in detail.
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That certainly fits with the story about the Special branch/Met's cover-up of the Peter Morrison evidence, and might well expalin Fernbank's determination to get hold of the surviving documentation including Mary Moss' box files.
 
Although I dont think they named him, I believe the Mails source for that part of the story (just a few lines in a rather long piece) is probably the other NAYPIC-connected person who has been openly talking to press etc for months. I'm quite surprised how very little new detail has still helped me get a better understanding of the allegations and the 'evidence' that was leaked. Until some of the stories mentioned above I hadnt realised that the word sauna next to someone on the list apparently meant there was a photo of him in the sauna with a boy, as opposed to simply being a user of the sauna rather than the other services the guesthouse provided.

As for Special Branch, I dont remember hearing much about them in connection with Morrison, off the top of my head they did come up in several stories about the files on Cyril Smith though. And I remain fascinated by what happened to Tory MP Geoffrey Dickens when he decided to have a personal mini-crusade against powerful paedophiles and named diplomat Peter Hayman in parliament. Revelations about affairs Dickens was having suddenly came out, causing him to have to turn a press conference he was about to give about Hayman into a statement about leaving his wife. And I've recently seen an old newspaper front page where he claims his flat was bugged after revelations of a second girlfriend emerged. I'll try to sort some links.
 
The press are finally poking at past press stories. Geoffrey Dickens who I've mentioned several times gets a mention in this one, and much more could be made of that angle than this story touches on but hey, its a start.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/home-office-was-warned-by-top-tory-1647786
A senior Tory MP handed an explosive dossier alleging VIP child abuse to the Government almost 30 years ago, the Sunday People can reveal.
The 50 pages contained information about suspected paedophile rings, police misconduct and abuse of boys in a care home.
There are suggestions the dossier contained links to the notorious Elm guest house in south-west London which is currently the focus of the Met Police’s investigation Operation Fernbridge.
But the file has disappeared.
It was presented to the Home Office by Geoffrey Dickens MP in 1984.
Later he had a half-hour meeting with the then-Home Secretary Leon Brittan which Mr Dickens described as encouraging.
The MP for Littleborough and Saddleworth said he had been assured his allegations of a UK-wide paedophile ring would be fully investigated.
But there is no evidence Mr Dickens’ findings were ever followed up and the Home Office admits it has no idea where the file is now.
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Together they raise concerns that a cover-up – perhaps orchestrated by MI5 or Scotland Yard’s Special Branch – may have protected senior figures mentioned in the dossier.
Mr Watson has now tabled a Parliamentary question asking Home Secretary Theresa May to track down the Dickens dossier and make it available to MPs.
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Mr Dickens, who died in 1995 aged 63, spent years collecting his evidence. The colourful MP was convinced he had solid proof of a VIP paedophile network with links to Parliament, Buckingham Palace and other areas of public life.
It is believed he handed at least two dossiers to the Government.
In 1981 he used Parliamentary privilege to name diplomat Sir Peter Hayman as a paedophile.
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In 1983, Mr Dickens said there were “big, big names – people in positions of power, influence and responsibility” and threatened to expose them in Parliament if no action was taken against PIE.
The MP handed a one-million strong petition against the group to Home Secretary Mr Brittan.
In 1984 he revealed he had called for Mr Brittan to investigate the allegations in his dossier.
He added: “The dossier contained allegations of a child offence in a children’s home.”
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Oh dear.​
​
http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/view/297870/Boy-sex-pics-of-former-Cabinet-minister-is-stolen/

​
And Operation Fernbridge, the police probe, has been told a snap of another Cabinet minister in a sauna with a naked 14-year-old boy was stolen from the home of Carole Kasir, the madam who ran the place.​
​
Two days after the burglary in 1990, diabetic Kasir died of an apparent insulin overdose – but pals say it was murder.​
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​
The lawyer, who spoke to us on condition of anonymity, said: “I was told this story in April 2004 from a man I knew, a former prisoner.​
​
“He told me about a career criminal who targeted the rich and famous.​
​
“After one raid he found he’d grabbed this envelope containing pics of an instantly recognisable man, a senior politician, performing oral sex on a boy.​
​
“Then, in the early to mid 90s, the burglar was caught and seemed to be looking at a couple of years behind bars.​
​
“So he showed the photos to his lawyer – who took it away. The next thing he knows, the judge throws the book at him. ​
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​
 
Stamford died in prison of a heart attack aged 56 in Belgium in 1995 just before he was due to stand trial on child sex charges.
Carole Kasir who died at the age of 47 in 1990 from an overdose in an apparent suicide.
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Two days after the burglary in 1990, diabetic Kasir died of an apparent insulin overdose – but pals say it was murder.
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There do seem to be a fair few people end up dying conveniently just before they might start causing this ring / network serious problems.
 

Today Wrexham.com and others who have requested copies of the document were given a formal reply to their Freedom of Information requests for the release of the Jillings Report into North Wales Child Abuse.
We wrote last week how it had taken over 80 days for a decision to be made, with councillors taking it upon themselves to ask questions on the delay.
Today’s reply states “The Council’s commitment to wishing to publish the report remains, subject to advice on timing and what may be published. However, it has concluded that due to the ongoing Police investigation it is unable to release any of the report at this time.”
It appears that the FOI has been paused pending an ongoing Police investigation. A timeline is hinted at saying that publication in the future depends on what occurs into Operation Pallial. The Council state “Your current request for disclosure will be considered again at that time. There is no need to submit a further request.”
Although this appears that the FOI is still ‘live’ , the accompanying documentation suggests otherwise stating “The Council believes that the public interest in maintaining the exemption outweighs the interest in disclosure at the present moment in time.”
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http://www.wrexham.com/news/wrexham...ngs-report-publication-foi-for-now-28861.html
 
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