How much evidence is there of long term high level UK paedophile ring?

[Buckaroo]

One of the current unknowns is what the shape of any future disclosures are yet to look like, and therefore in our opinion, it could be damaging to the judicial process, if that system was compromised in some way, by the public disclosure of relevant material now.

Who knew?

 

[existentialist]

It may be a somewhat extremist position to take, but - in the light of the recent revelations about Chetham's music school and the now rather familiar litany of students reporting abuse but no action being taken - I am increasingly inclined to take the view that ANY attempt to delay or interfere with publication of already-existing information about child sexual abuse must almost certainly be an indicator that there are dark secrets hidden that need to be revealed.

From my own personal experience of how this omerta seems to operate, I find it increasingly difficult not to speculate as to the prevalence of, if not an organised high-level ring, at the very least an informal network of child sexual abusers that is endemic enough that its members are to be found throughout society, from the lowest levels to the most exalted ranks. And it is in the interests of those more exalted types, who do - it would appear - have the power to suppress investigation into their activities to stifle any notion that this kind of sexual abuse isn't prevalent across the whole range.

We have seen enough evidence already, from the Jimmy Savile business, through Chetham's, to the more general investigations elsewhere, to suggest that there has been a huge reservoir of abuse that has somehow been able to remain hidden in plain view for three or four decades, sometimes longer. I think the time really has come to step back from all of these individual investigations and take a really broad and courageous view, and ask not so much how high does this go as how broadly does it go?

 

[elbows]

I have a little bit of trouble looking at it quite like that. It only takes a small minority of people to do great harm, and in percentage terms it seems unlikely to reach staggering proportions. So I'm not really sure what kind of answer to the 'how broadly?' question you are expecting. Whether we are talking about MPs, care workers, teachers, or any other group, it doesnt take very many to make for an ugly scene, and then just add coverup to magnify the horror and damage in the end.

What seems to me to be the most troubling question for society and institutions, is how terribly, terribly shit they are at dealing with abuse in a timely manner which prevents further harm from occurring. There are a number of reasons for that, long before we get to the spooky stuff. People not wanting to talk about it, and desperate attempts to avoid scandal and reputation damage of institutions etc are high on the list.

 

[DaveCinzano]

Kincora files to start coming out soon, apparently:

http://muckraker.me/2013/02/08/kincora-files-due-for-release-this-year/#more-1339

 

[elbows]

Think I previously missed this late January story about Cyril Smith being one of the guest houses clients. This possibility isnt a new revelation but it hasnt received much mainstream press attention. This particular article includes details such as him breaking a toilet seat there and never paying for it.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/cyril-smith-named-in-barnes-abuse-case-8468370.html

 

[Chook]

A postgrad Fijian student that I knew at the UEA in the eighties smashed the whole device to shards. Huge guy, nasty cuts. Turns out he started the Fiji Post which became a government mouthpiece. A rival paper takes up his story:

http://www.fijisun.com.fj/2012/03/13/ficac-case-against-bolea-to-go-ahead/

 

[brogdale]

David Henke has posted on his blog about the progress Exaro have made in beginning to expose the contemporary knowledge of child abuse at Elm guest house held by a prominent LB Richmond offical.

The amnesia surrounding everybody at Richmond Council over the 1982 Elm guest house paedophile scandal is at an end.
A dramatic interview by my colleague Mark Conrad published in Exaro News today ( http://bit.ly/Vesffe) with Terry Earland, the former assistant director in charge of children’s services, reveals that he knew that children at Grafton Close children’s home were sexually abused at Elm Guest House.

It directly contradicts what Louis Minster, (former social services director), told Exaro from Malta only days ago when he claimed he had never heard about the Elm Guest House in Barnes until Exaro and the Sunday People revealed the police investigation into the scandal. How can his head of children’s services know what happened and he didn’t know anything?

Henke highlights the discrepancy between the offical's admission that he knew children in the council's care were being abused at Elm Guest house and the apparent 'amnesia' of the then elected LD councillors:-

Top Liberal Democrat politicians and the most senior official in charge of social services in the London borough of Richmond appear to have been struck dumb by an extraordinary outbreak of amnesia over the rapidly enfolding child abuse scandal 30 years ago.
Contacted by myself and my colleagues at Exaro News prominent Lib SDP councillors at the time Lord Razzall, Baroness Tonge, Sir David Williams don’t seem to remember a thing about it.

This looks like a promising line of attack from Exaro, especially given what has now been reported in the MSM about Cyril Smith's fondness for the Guest House.

As Henke says:-

It has all the hallmarks of the scandal in North Wales. Searching questions are needed of people in power at the time.

 

[elbows]

Here we go then:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/former-tory-faces-child-sex-1714162#.USASEa3O84k.twitter

Police are preparing to arrest a former Tory Cabinet minister after a woman came forward to claim she had been raped by him as a girl.
Detectives are also investigating claims that he abused boys.
We can reveal that the former minister is suspected of being part of a VIP paedophile ring that was regularly handed boys by child rapist and killer Sidney Cooke for vile sex orgies.
The former high-ranking MP, who we cannot name, is under investigation by Scotland Yard’s paedophile unit.
Sources close to the probe gave details of the new allegations to the Sunday Mirror and investigative news website Exaro.
A former detective who worked on the original investigation into Cooke told the Sunday Mirror that the minister was among those alleged to have been photographed in a 1986 police surveillance on premises where boys had been dropped off.
Others allegedly included Jimmy Savile, MP Cyril Smith and top judges – though none of them were ever arrested.

The former officer said up to 16 high profile figures were due to be arrested. But the day before they were to be carried out detectives were told the operation had been disbanded.
The revelation means Scotland Yard knew about allegations concerning the Cabinet Minister and Savile in 1986 but did nothing about it, instead choosing to cover up the claims.
A source told Exaro last week that senior officers, including Commander Peter Spindler, the head of the Paedophile Unit, have had a secret briefing on preparations to arrest the ex-minister.
It is understood that the investigation is at an early stage but there is a plan to arrest him in the next few weeks.
After the 1986 operation into Cooke was disbanded the former officer went to check the file – only to find the pictures had disappeared and any mention of the men involved had also vanished.
The former officer said: “It was clear a cover-up had taken place.

There is more in the story but I think I've quoted enough.

 

[butchersapron]

Well done the boys and girls at exaro - they didn't have a great start on this but they kept at it, doing proper sustained journalism. Now, where do the threads go?

 

[free spirit]

Better late than never.

It looks like the police really are going to unravel this, unless it's a case of a few more sacrificial lambs being thrown to the wolves.

So, without actually speculating, I wonder who the tory is, and whether anyone will spill the beans on the rest of them or not.

That article also reads like the sort of thing that might be used to try to provoke them into incriminating themselves and others prior to arrest.... fingers crossed.

 

[free spirit]

Well done the boys and girls at exaro - they didn't have a great start on this but they kept at it, doing proper sustained journalism. Now, where do the threads go?

agreed.

 

[elbows]

That article also reads like the sort of thing that might be used to try to provoke them into incriminating themselves and others prior to arrest.... fingers crossed.

Or they have been leaking to reduce the chances of investigations being shut down.

 

[free spirit]

Or they have been leaking to reduce the chances of investigations being shut down.

could be, but I like my version better as 16 high profile people between them could end up incriminating a lot of others. From what I remember of the article I posted about at some point in this thread re the Bristol investigation that ended up unravelling a network of 40+ paedophiles that's basically how they did it, starting with a few, then examining their contacts, getting them to rat on each other etc until they hit the 40 mark, before they basically got closed down due to budget constraints.

btw it occurs to me that 16 high profile people is starting to look like the sort of high level ring I originally asked the question about in the thread title.

 

[elbows]

The 16 were due to be arrested in the 1980's, thats not how many are due to be arrested this time around.

 

[free spirit]

The 16 were due to be arrested in the 1980's, thats not how many are due to be arrested this time around.

ah, so it is.

damn.

 

[brogdale]

ah, so it is.

damn.

Yes, but if the former detective speaking to the Mirror is correct, the shape of the next investigation into wrong-doing within the Met. is already emerging. Added to the claims about the Peter Morrison cover-up, (already in the public domaine via Nick Davies' article), this impending case will surely produce evidence necessitating a wide-ranging inquiry into cover-ups. Let's hope Watson is ready.

A former detective who worked on the original investigation into Cooke told the Sunday Mirror that the minister was among those alleged to have been photographed in a 1986 police surveillance on premises where boys had been dropped off. Others allegedly included Jimmy Savile, MP Cyril Smith and top judges – though none of them were ever arrested. The former officer said up to 16 high profile figures were due to be arrested. But the day before they were to be carried out detectives were told the operation had been disbanded. The revelation means Scotland Yard knew about allegations concerning the Cabinet Minister and Savile in 1986 but did nothing about it, instead choosing to cover up the claims.

The former officer said: “It was clear a cover-up had taken place.

 

[brogdale]

'Interesting' timing from the Bar Council:-

Suspects in sex cases should have their identities protected until they are convicted, a senior lawyer has said.
Maura McGowan QC, chairman of the Bar Council of England and Wales, said defendants should get the same right to anonymity as complainants.
She wants the change because sexual allegations carry "such a stigma".

 

[elbows]

It now seems likely that as Fernbridge focusses on the guest house, Fairbank continues to look into other stuff. They are apparently going after Charles Napier again:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/vip-child-abuse-ring-cops-1713969

Police are re-investigating notorious paedophile Charles Napier as part of their probe into a high-profile VIP child abuse ring, the Sunday People has revealed.
The Sunday People first revealed the shameful past of Napier, ex-treasurer of the Paedophile Information Exchange (PIE), after we tracked him down in a sleepy country town.
Now officers from Operation Fairbank – set up to investigate historical allegations of a UK-wide paedophile network – are re-opening files on the 68-year-old.
It is understood detectives have already interviewed at least one of his victims. They are said to be particularly interested in Napier’s role in the PIE.

 

[elbows]

As Sidney Cooke had not previous come up on this thread, I suppose I'll have to do some random trawling of the past to see if anything interesting emerges.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/feb/20/tonythompson.theobserver

Four men belonging to the most reviled gang of child molesters in Britain were last night in fear of their lives after a second of their number was slain in an apparent revenge killing.
Sidney Cooke, Robert Oliver and Stephen Barrell, believed to have murdered up to 20 young boys, and their friend, Brian 'Chickenmaster' Turner, a former scoutmaster convicted of abusing dozens of boys, fear their names are on a hit list drawn up by East End gangsters sympathetic to the victims' families.
All four are known to have associated with Bill Malcolm, who was shot through the head with a single bullet when he answered the door at his home in Forest Gate, east London, last Thursday night. The killing bore the hallmarks of a professional hit and two white males were seen running away. Malcolm, 46, died on the way to hospital.
The four men, along with Malcolm, were also closely associated with Leslie 'Catweazle' Bailey, the man convicted alongside Cooke, Oliver and Barrell of the murder of 14-year-old Jason Swift. Each of the men had paid £5 to have sex with Jason in a filthy flat in Hackney in 1984, but he died when the orgy when wrong.
Bailey was found dead in his cell in Whitemoor prison in 1993. At first he was thought to have taken his own life, but a post-mortem examination showed he had been strangled. Two prisoners, Michael Cain and John Brookes, were convicted of his murder. They are believed to have acted in a bid to avenge Bailey's victims.

 

[two sheds]

As Sidney Cooke had not previous come up on this thread, I suppose I'll have to do some random trawling of the past to see if anything interesting emerges.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2000/feb/20/tonythompson.theobserver

Jesus, "murdered up to 20 young boys" - it's not often I find my sympathies stirred for East End gangs.

Brian 'Chickenmaster' Turner and Leslie 'Catweazle' Bailey just sound like something out of a bad 1970s detective story.

 

[butchersapron]

**sorry, thread doesn't need this**

 

[elbows]

Jesus, "murdered up to 20 young boys" - it's not often I find my sympathies stirred for East End gangs.

Brian 'Chickenmaster' Turner and Leslie 'Catweazle' Bailey just sound like something out of a bad 1970s detective story.

I doubt many people expected the 'high level paedophile' stuff to merge with arguably the most notorious sadistic child killer paedophile gang story of recent decades. But thats what has potentially happened with the recent story. I havent yet found any hints that the Cooke gang, the 'Dirty Dozen', would come to have the term VIP inserted into it. The only links I've seen in the past of this nature have been the paedo-obsessed websites that try to merge all stories together without even attempting to make real links between them.

I mean Cooke was the man 'sent into space with a child' in the Brass Eye special, such was the level of media frenzy over his crimes at the time.

Here is a documentary about his gang and the Jason Swift murder, which I just watched to see if there was even the vaguest hint of anything more. Its a bloody awful documentary in places, the language goes totally to shit in places, although at other moments its not that bad, dont let the atrocious narrative at the very start put you off. And no, there were no VIP hints in it that I could detect, its like a different world, at least in terms of the perpetrators but not so much the victims.

 

[elbows]

That article also reads like the sort of thing that might be used to try to provoke them into incriminating themselves and others prior to arrest.... fingers crossed.

The documentary I just embedded makes a brief reference to this technique.

 

[elbows]

It reminds me of Boothby & The Krays in a way. And oh how badly equipped the mainstream is to acknowledge the realities when different form of power mix. We get 'the most sensational of scandals' or themes discussed mostly via fiction, with other aspects of the mainstream almost entirely unable to approach subjects where the compartmentalisation of society starts to leak badly.

So we can have works of fiction where 'respectable businessmen' use the criminal classes for muscle and profit, but very few real examples come to light in the news.

 

[brogdale]

Henke worried that (potentially) key witness is about to leave UK:-

http://davidhencke.wordpress.com/2013/02/20/will-elm-guest-house-man-quit-britain/

 

[Pickman's model]

It reminds me of Boothby & The Krays in a way. And oh how badly equipped the mainstream is to acknowledge the realities when different form of power mix. We get 'the most sensational of scandals' or themes discussed mostly via fiction, with other aspects of the mainstream almost entirely unable to approach subjects where the compartmentalisation of society starts to leak badly.

So we can have works of fiction where 'respectable businessmen' use the criminal classes for muscle and profit, but very few real examples come to light in the news.

that's because people who are involved in criminal activity are often rather secretive about the matter. plus journalists are frequently averse to having their legs and arms broken.

 

[Barking_Mad]

Think I previously missed this late January story about Cyril Smith being one of the guest houses clients. This possibility isnt a new revelation but it hasnt received much mainstream press attention. This particular article includes details such as him breaking a toilet seat there and never paying for it.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/cyril-smith-named-in-barnes-abuse-case-8468370.html

On similar lines. Did this make any news at the time?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ful-paedophile-ring-30-years-ago-8507780.html

 

[elbows]

He was often in the papers at the time, yes. Most notably when he named the diplomat Peter Hayman using parliamentary privilege. I found out about it and started ranting about it in this thread because I temporarily subscribed to a fairly crappy online press archive that only gave me access to a few of the more scurrilous papers. In particular I took note of the fact that a press conference he was supposed to be holding about Peter Hayman suddenly turned into a press conference about him having an affair and suddenly having to decide to leave his wife. It seems quite plausible that certain powers didnt like his powerful paedo outing activities and decided to dig for dirt, leaving him with just minutes to make a crap decision (he later went back to his wife). Other articles I have seen more recently suggest he was then outed for having another affair, at which point he started making noises about his flat being bugged.

The other technique other than poking into his own private life, appears to have been either to moan about misuse of parliamentary privilege, or to suggest that his entire anti-paedo campaign was just cheap self-publicity.

 

[elbows]

You may find this twitter users collection of photos of old press cuttings rather interesting. Dickens is featured fairly often.

disclaimer: I do not vouch for the overall tone of this twitter users campaign and there may be certain insinuations which are unsuitable for u75 discussion at this point.

http://twitpic.com/photos/murunbuch?page=1

 

[elbows]

With exquisite timing the Cyril Smith stuff is back:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/feb/26/liberals-cyril-smith-abuse-allegations

Liberal party grandees including the former leader Jeremy Thorpe were aware of allegations that Cyril Smith was a serial abuser of boys throughout the 1970s but failed to launch a formal inquiry, according to a Liberal Democrat candidate who has passed his concerns on to the police.

Dominic Carman, who has represented Nick Clegg's party in two parliamentary elections, claimed that his father, the barrister George Carman, learned that concerns about the late MP for Rochdale's behaviour were rife within the party while successfully defending Thorpe in a trial for conspiracy to murder in 1979.

Father and son discussed Liberal concerns about Smith at length in May 1979 as Thorpe prepared to go to trial, Carman said, amid concerns that their disclosure could harm the former leader's defence.

The claims, which have been passed on to Greater Manchester police, will add to widening concern at institutional responses to allegations of abuse against the MP, who died in 2010. Officers believe that Smith was a prolific abuser of boys and should have been charged with crimes more than 40 years ago, it emerged in November.

Plenty more in the full article.