Hartlepool by-election

[Idris2002]

Pasokification is richly deserved, and swiftly coming. It will occur, however, in a political system that will not be open to any replacements. Labour will stagger on as a zombie party, akin to the "bloc parties" of East Germany, which were intended to give that regime a fig leaf of legitimacy to the SED regime while having no real independent existence of any kind.

Syriza for all its faults, could replace Pasok, but that was only because the Greek system was open enough to allow that. No such opening exists in the UK.

Given the open and rank corruption of the smash-and-grab Tories and their single-party regime, what this suggests that about the immediate and long-term futures of the United Kingdom is that neither will be good. A long period of stagnation of every sort, economic, political and cultural, followed by an ignomious crash.

 

[William of Walworth]

you should have tried directing the canvass, which can readily be done from a public house

"Back in the day" when such was allowed, I would have been the best Treating Organiser ever!!

 

[oryx]

It pains me to say it but the UK has ended up like the US with elections being voted for on 'personality' because politics in the age of social media is, like, well boring. People want fun-sized soundbites rather than grown up debate and analysis.

Starmer clearly has none, and I'm struggling to think of any possible candidates in the party right now.

I agree with you to some extent but how'd you explain Drakeford (seems like a decent guy but one with a charisma bypass) and Welsh Labour?

 

[Rimbaud]

Any comments from those predicting big things for the NIP? Less than 1% of the vote (and around what I predicted) must be pretty crushing. Especially given the average life span on internet only political projects...

I am disappointed but I am still a paid up member and will keep the faith.

They aren't even registered yet and their name wasn't on the ballot paper. Also, Hartlepool has an elderly population and they aren't really the likely demographic for NIP support.

It gained them experience as a young and still unregistered party. I can still see them doing well in the likes of Liverpool, Newcastle, Sheffield, and Leeds in future.

The main takeaway from this election is that Labour is unsalvageable. The old industrial working class of the 80s and earlier is gone, but they failed to recognise the urban tenant precariat who backed Corbyn as the 21st Century Proletariat, and dismissed them as irrelevant and privileged student radicals as if this was the 1960s. In doing so, they have doomed themselves.

This is why you have places like South Tyneside going Green Party. I voted Green but I don't trust them because in my experience the Green Party contains too many posh posers who talk social justice but don't really give a shit beyond posturing. But nevertheless there is a space which has opened up for an alternative to the Labour Party, and NIP are still a strong contender imo. We may be at a stage now where the Labour Party are such a mess that they will no longer benefit from FPTP and people will feel less like a vote for a smaller party is letting the Tories in.

 

[butchersapron]

Hey! What happened to democratising the party first,.

No real options but burnham.

Was your idea before a low vote turnout loss that labour was over rimbaud?

 

[Rimbaud]

Hey! What happened to democratising the party first,. NO Options but burnham.

Was your idea before a low vote turnout loss that labour was over rimbaud?

Yes, that's why I joined the NIP.

 

[butchersapron]

Yes, that's why I joined the NIP.

Ah right, sorry.

 

[oryx]

The old industrial working class of the 80s and earlier is gone, but they failed to recognise the urban tenant precariat who backed Corbyn as the 21st Century Proletariat, and dismissed them as irrelevant and privileged student radicals as if this was the 1960s. In doing so, they have doomed themselves.

This is why you have places like South Tyneside going Green Party. I voted Green but I don't trust them because in my experience the Green Party contains too many posh posers who talk social justice but don't really give a shit beyond posturing.

One of the good things about Corbyn's leadership was that he attracted young and radical-ish voters. I suspect that a lot of these have gone over to the Greens, or not bothered to vote.

I don't want to see Labour becoming that party of managerial 'centrist dad' types which under Starmer it is starting to do. (Maybe 'starting to' is an understatement).

As for the Greens - I knew some people through my previous line of work who worked for Brighton Council when it was Green, and did not have good things to say about how they treated their employees. The Greens get positive publicity because Caroline Lucas is a highly respected MP.

 

[oryx]

I'm no defender of Labour (or any representative political party) but there is a centre-left party that is poised to win its fourth consecutive election victory and be returned to power despite an almost universally hostile national media. Labourites wedded to bland forms of social democracy might learn something from the SNP. Yet oddly they seem more willing to ape the Tories.

IMVHO one of the best posts in this thread.

 

[PR1Berske]

 

[butchersapron]

yep

 

[Wilf]

sure. it's a process that already started in 2019 tbf - plenty of seats where the TIG or lib dem vote was the difference that helped the tories in - expect there's plenty more where we could see similar next time.

Labour are fucked tbh. I honestly don't know what they could do now to sort it out.

I was wondering yesterday, as a kind of thought experiment, whether there was a project/set of policies/position/sell, that the Labour right could actually put together to win back ground. It would have to include some level of commitment to public services, an attack on fat cats but not the middle classes, there'd be some level of increased immigration control and then... what? Blair has used up most of the sparkly lies about 'modernisation' and helping the poor by making the rich richer. There's probably some kind of postwar line about no going back to pre-Covid times and building the peace. But all that adds up to nothing more coherent than the shite on Miliband's tablet of stone. I'm not sure there's any magic dust for some post-Starmer Svengali to scatter about.

 

[Raheem]

Starmer did annoy people in my local area by saying BLM was just a moment. So in London the perception is different.

Not necessarily. No sign that won him fans anywhere else, is there?

 

[Raheem]

Anywhere or anyone with a list of achievements/failures to compare?

Not sure mayor's have achievements and accomplishments, at least not on a scale that matters in an election. What they do have is a personal platform and PR people.

 

[Dogsauce]

That fucking Johnson inflatable is peak arrogant triumphalism, rubbing people’s noses in it. Was it made by a newspaper or the Tories themselves?

 

[The39thStep]

Not sure mayor's have achievements and accomplishments, at least not on a scale that matters in an election. What they do have is a personal platform and PR people.

???

 

[JTG]

Still reeling at Labour selecting the anti-Brexit bloke who helped remove critical care from Hartlepool's hospital as their candidate in the strongly pro-Brexit and A&E loving town.

 

[killer b]

he was a bad choice, but I reckon all that's only worth a few points. It would have been a wipe-out either way.

 

[JTG]

It illustrates just how clueless they are though

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I was wondering yesterday, as a kind of thought experiment, whether there was a project/set of policies/position/sell, that the Labour right could actually put together to win back ground. It would have to include some level of commitment to public services, an attack on fat cats but not the middle classes, there'd be some level of increased immigration control and then... what? Blair has used up most of the sparkly lies about 'modernisation' and helping the poor by making the rich richer. There's probably some kind of postwar line about no going back to pre-Covid times and building the peace. But all that adds up to nothing more coherent than the shite on Miliband's tablet of stone. I'm not sure there's any magic dust for some post-Starmer Svengali to scatter about.

It’s actually quite straightforward. Engage the Tories about the reconstruction of the economy post covid. Pledge a Biden style infrastructure plan (a mix of Keynesian boosterism for capital and relief for the most poor) covering broadband, transport, housing and health. Launch a town by town regeneration plan and hammer these on every leaflet and speech. If the Tories pledge x for a town Labour pledges to do more. Make a fulsome and genuine apology for the back turning on Brexit: and mean it. Set out a strategy to tackle poverty pay starting in the public sector. Continue to point out the Tories are a sleazy posh chumocracy. Emphasise the value of programmes and policies that benefit all sections of the working class with tailored messages for different demographics.

It’s pretty basic stuff.

 

[Mr Moose]

I was wondering yesterday, as a kind of thought experiment, whether there was a project/set of policies/position/sell, that the Labour right could actually put together to win back ground. It would have to include some level of commitment to public services, an attack on fat cats but not the middle classes, there'd be some level of increased immigration control and then... what? Blair has used up most of the sparkly lies about 'modernisation' and helping the poor by making the rich richer. There's probably some kind of postwar line about no going back to pre-Covid times and building the peace. But all that adds up to nothing more coherent than the shite on Miliband's tablet of stone. I'm not sure there's any magic dust for some post-Starmer Svengali to scatter about.

I spent a lot of time with the news channels on and Mandelson was popping up everywhere with his usual lines, but I can’t remember him suggesting a single practical policy Labour could follow right now that would appeal to anyone.

 

[brogdale]

It illustrates just how clueless they are though

Or arrogant and tribally/ideologically inward looking.

 

[brogdale]

I spent a lot of time with the news channels on and Mandelson was popping up everywhere with his usual lines, but I can’t remember him suggesting a single practical policy Labour could follow right now that would appeal to anyone.

There's a good reason for that.

 

[Mr Moose]

There's a good reason for that.

That he is a reanimated corpse was my guess.

 

[philosophical]

The cunts who voted Tory voted for cunts who cut nurses pay in a pandemic.
Have to live with the fact that those who dominate are cunts.
Bollocks to the analysis, what is there to analyse?
Pieces of shit vote Tory, and love it.

 

[JTG]

Or arrogant and tribally/ideologically inward looking.

Indeed. Collective failure to read the post 2008 world, which is quite something given it's now 13 years since the credit crunch

 

[brogdale]

That he is a reanimated corpse was my guess.

No, more obvious than that.

 

[killer b]

It illustrates just how clueless they are though

if the tories had lost we'd all be talking about how clueless it was to parachute in a rich farmer with no links to the town. as it turns out candidate choice is waaaay down the list of mistakes the LP made on this.

 

[Mr Moose]

No, more obvious than that.

Well yes, he represents a completely redundant and out of touch centre view.

 

[Mr Moose]

The cunts who voted Tory voted for cunts who cut nurses pay in a pandemic.
Have to live with the fact that those who dominate are cunts.
Bollocks to the analysis, what is there to analyse?
Pieces of shit vote Tory, and love it.

Ok you can feel that the day after, but it’s not going to get you very far.

This form of Toryism for the moment looks monolithic, but it’s actually a Johnson resignation/coronary away from a crisis.

So plan for that. Have an opposition inspired by honesty, fairness, confidence in how the World can be changed and a desire to help waiting.