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Hartlepool by-election

. If they had made serious plans for some kind of Lexit and included that in the manifesto under the pretext of It's been voted for, that's democracy, we accept it, here's our plan for it, they would IMO have done much better. Would be doing much better.
Yep. Labour have a long term problem in terms of responding to deindustrialisation and the disappearance of working class jobs that led to trade union membership and Labour voting (as in Smokeandsteam 's post above). Part of the process of reconnection would have been to simply accept the Brexit vote and pursue the best deal for workers, the environment etc. That would have been 'democracy', but also recognition that the brexit vote itself had been about working class communities feeling ignored. It would have also made Labour an active player with regard to GETTING BREXIT DONE, to coin a phrase, rather than looking a bunch of inept lawyers and Westminster 'insiders'. Instead, Labour ignored alienated communities some more and played an absurd game of seeking parliamentary numbers to trip May up. Starmer was of course idiot number one in this, but Corbyn's approach betrayed awful instincts. It was always the game and the internal politics of the party, never looking outwards. Labour went into the 2019 election with a reasonable set of social democratic policies (even if it was a bit of a garbled mess). However everything that Labour did from 2017-19 further alienated them from working class voters and areas, to the point where the policies were irrelevant. And here we are.
 
Richard Seymour's mailout just now is good.


Let's give as much charity as we can to every excuse that can be found.

The 'vaccine bounce' is not an illusion. It isn't anything like the whole story, but we have to make allowance for the sheer emotional relief of springtime, reopening and the semi-plausible belief that the era of lockdowns is over. No matter how much death and misery the government are to blame for, Boris Johnson's specific appeal to voters is that he makes them feel good about themselves. 'Bring us sunshine', the Daily Mail once mawkishly pleaded, and for those who like him, he does. If depression is endemic in these isles, don't underestimate the power of anyone who appears to offer an anti-depressant.

The Brexit effect is real. In seats like Hartlepool, the surprise of 2017 was that they didn't go Tory, with the single exception of Mansfield. In the previous general election of 2015, the combined Conservative and Ukip vote was easily over fifty percent in a slew of former Labour heartlands. This largely reflected the growing abstention of former Labour voters, but a minority were also energised by Ukip's racist agitation in a way that they wouldn't been by the Tories. Ukip functioned as a conversion machine, delivering lots of former non-voters, Liberal voters, independent voters and Labour voters to Tories in these constituencies. The collapse that was expected in 2017, when Farage was briefly in retirement and Ukip voters were expected to go Tory, was simply put off for a couple of years by a surprisingly effective Labour campaign and manifesto. More generally, the revival of the Conservative vote is a secular phenomenon. In every election since 2010, the Tories have increased their vote share. The biggest single factor in this is the rise of right-wing populism and its culmination in the Brexit vote.

Congruent with that shift, the Conservatives are no longer campaigning on a neoliberal, austerian ticket. They are talking about big structural investment. Tory mayor of Hartlepool, Ben Houchen, is popular because he supports some Labour-type policies: taking the local airport into public ownership, investment and industrial policy. The global context, which includes low borrowing costs for governments, the retreat of globalisation, the pandemic emergency, the rise of Chinese state capitalism as a superior competitor, and the concomitant shift in Washington, gives the Conservatives plenty of leeway for this. When Hillary Clinton talks about competing with China more effectively by reclaiming "the means of production", you know that the old Washington Consensus is finished. As L. P. Hartley wrote, "the past is a foreign country: they do things differently there."

The desperadoes of the Labour Right would add one more effect: the 'Corbyn effect'. Few beyond their incestuous sodalities will buy it, but let's give it as much charity as possible. Tom Watson is quite right to say that Labour was never going to turn round the 2019 defeat in a single year. It is also true to say that this defeat, as much as it was about Brexit and Labour's utter confusion on the issue, was also about the extent to which Corbyn himself had been vilified in the national media. It's also probably true that the denouement of Corbynism, after the enthusiasm of 2017, probably confirmed many people in their growing cynicism toward and contempt for Labour. It's also true that the defeat in 2019 demoralised and disoriented activists, and triggered a sequence leading to the decimation of the activist and small donor base. That has left campaigns strapped for door-knockers and cash.

Not much else can be said in favour of the 'blame Corbyn' argument, because it's an insane argument. If your vote drops more then points on that of your predecessor, it isn't convincing to blame your predecessor. Particularly if you've witch-hunted, suspended and denied the whip to your predecessor, an auto-da-fé put on precisely so that the current leader could boast about how different he was. This election campaign was run by the leadership office. The candidate, a dull figure of the centre-right, was imposed by the leadership. Even the timetable was chosen by the leadership office. The campaign was dominated, not by Corbynites, but by New Labour figures such as Peter Mandelson and Iain McNicol. The whole political strategy since early 2020, such as it is, has been determined by the leadership office. That strategy is what has been tested here, nothing else.

And this is where we come to Keir Starmer. Starmer reminds one of the character in Howard's End who has given up "the glory of the animal for a tail coat and a couple of ideas". Except that he has neither ideas nor tailcoat. Yet, half of the Corbyn base, given an admittedly uninspiring roster of candidates last year, and amid the demoralisation and rudderlessness mentioned above, chose him. I frankly think this speaks poorly of them. That they didn't cringe to listen to him speak. That he didn't make their teeth chatter and their skin crawl. That they really bought this balloon as a charismatic performer, as someone who could (even if he wished to) defend the core policies in a slick and professional way. One can only be reminded of those Lib Dems who genuinely thought that Jo Swinson was good on television, until she spent a bit more time on television. It's a sad testament to the mind-addling power of despair. And yet, of course, when the chips are down you see what that support amounts to. There was a big abstention of activists in these local elections (excepting, perhaps, in Manchester where Andy Burnham appears to draw genuine warmth). This is why constituency parties and the national office were bombarding members with emails begging for help. Since there isn't going to be a change of leadership, most people are voting with their feet.

Now, I've seen John McDonnell in the news explaining that he won't be asking for Starmer to resign. He says that would be behaving like the people who waged relentless, brutal war against Corbyn. I can see the game that McDonnell is playing. However, the rhetoric speaks volumes about what went wrong with the Corbyn leadership, and what goes wrong with the British Left in general. It's far too much in love with the moral high ground, when political battles aren't usually won on the moral high ground. And that's why we have Starmer, and that's why Starmer will get far worse before anything gets better.
 
True, with regard the length of time they've existed, but this was an ideal moment for them to make some sort of a splash. Lingering sense of the north east being far from the centre of power, Labour's vote crumbling, candidates being parachuted in for both Labour and Tory.
Which are all true but they weren't expecting the by election, didn't have a very long run up from formation to polling day, during a pandemic. Not sure much can be read into it tbh
No skin in the game tbh but it seems a bit soon to be making judgments unless people are peeved that someone dared to try something new outside of the Labour Party, in which case shrug
Some bloke in Hull who ran under their banner got 10% I see. But anyway.
 
m)
Nobody's said that, nobody's saying it. What has been pointed out though is that this swing is more to do with people not voting because they can't see anything worth voting for. Tories tend to vote come hell or high water, so when everyone else is disengaged, tories win by default. If Labour were worth voting for, people would vote for them. They did vote for them. Labour got their biggest actual number of votes in 2019**, I think ever (I may be wrong). If they had made serious plans for some kind of Lexit and included that in the manifesto under the pretext of It's been voted for, that's democracy, we accept it, here's our plan for it, they would IMO have done much better. Would be doing much better.

Anyway, that ship has sailed, but what Hartlepool shows more than anything is not so much people love the tories (their 15000 is about average for them, if you go back to the '80s). It's that Labour have lost a lot of support they once had. Looking at turnout, those people are mostly just not voting.

EtA, because it got corrected: yes I was thinking of 2017. 2019 was all "Get Brexit Done" though that does underline what I'm saying, I think.
Yes. Stephen Kinnock suggested Labour should vote for May’s brexit deal as least worst brexit & move on from there. Did not agree then but I do now. Hindsight eh ?
 
Disappointed rather than peeved tbh.

Interesting to note that the Survation constituency poll had the tories more or less nailed on, Labour a little overstated, and NIP totally wrong.
 
Which are all true but they weren't expecting the by election, didn't have a very long run up from formation to polling day, during a pandemic. Not sure much can be read into it tbh
No skin in the game tbh but it seems a bit soon to be making judgments unless people are peeved that someone dared to try something new outside of the Labour Party, in which case shrug
Some bloke in Hull who ran under their banner got 10% I see. But anyway.
Ditto in terms of skin absence and, fwiw, I'd have preferred Labour to lose due to a big NIP showing than what we got.

Must admit, I've completely ignored the 'Independence' bit in NIP. The question for me was if they got a reasonable showing as torch bearers of Labour's abandoned social democratic tradition, a kind of Corbynism with Corbyn if you like.

I think we come back to the conjunction of the party system and the electoral system. Labour are not fit for purpose at the moment, not any kind of purpose to be honest. However they are not going away and it's very difficult for any other party or set of parties to take their place. As always, things need to be built away from Westminster, but the really depressing thing is that isn't happening either.
 
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I wonder how many decades it will be before these twats keep blaming Corbyn for everything.
Tbf, Corbyn is at fault now, because voters are worried that he might come back, so just in case they vote Tory. Similarly the Labour vote under Brown and Milliband went down because voters then were concerned that Corbyn might become leader at some time in the future. Even after he eventually dies there's still the possibility he might rise from the dead. (It could happen - after all 'Che Guevara lives', 'Zapata lives', Jesus Christ etc).
 
Tbf, Corbyn is at fault now, because voters are worried that he might come back, so just in case they vote Tory. Similarly the Labour vote under Brown and Milliband went down because voters then were concerned that Corbyn might become leader at some time in the future. Even after he eventually dies there's still the possibility he might rise from the dead. (It could happen - after all 'Che Guevara lives', 'Zapata lives', Jesus Christ etc).
¡Alfaro Vive, Carajo!
 
Richard Seymour's mailout just now is good.

Seymour said:
Now, I've seen John McDonnell in the news explaining that he won't be asking for Starmer to resign. He says that would be behaving like the people who waged relentless, brutal war against Corbyn. I can see the game that McDonnell is playing. However, the rhetoric speaks volumes about what went wrong with the Corbyn leadership, and what goes wrong with the British Left in general. It's far too much in love with the moral high ground, when political battles aren't usually won on the moral high ground. And that's why we have Starmer, and that's why Starmer will get far worse before anything gets better.

Owen Jones' book on the whole Corbyn thing, has a useful chapter on the brexit fuck up. In it he claims that McDonnell - terrified of a labour PLP split which would make any domestic proposals null and void for decades, spooked by the CHUK move and so prioritising avoiding this, swung his considerable weight behind the second referendum campaign and even towards arguing for remain - in tandem with Starmer (who he had pissed off by messing his lines on a radio interview and saying they wouldn't argue for remain but just for another ref). Thus losing all them seats and with it the election and much of the parties traditional support. I don't think anyone should be taking lessons off him.

edit: oh yeah, Jones identifies Clitheroe as being in the west country in that chapter as well.
 
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Owen Jone's book on the whole Corbyn thing, has a useful chapter on the brexit fuck up in it. In it he claims that McDonnell - terrified of a labour PLP split which would make any domestic proposals null and void for decades, spooked by the CHUK move and so prioritising avoiding this, swung his considerable weight behind the second referendum campaign and even towards arguing for remain - in tandem with Starmer (who he had pissed off by messing his lines on a radio interview and saying they wouldn't argue for remain but just for another ref). Thus losing all them seats and with it the election and much of the parties traditional support. I don't think anyone should be taking lessons off him.
I think Seymour is pointing out McDonnell's lack of tactical nous in the paragraph you're quoting isn't he?
 
Owen Jones' book on the whole Corbyn thing, has a useful chapter on the brexit fuck up. In it he claims that McDonnell - terrified of a labour PLP split which would make any domestic proposals null and void for decades, spooked by the CHUK move and so prioritising avoiding this, swung his considerable weight behind the second referendum campaign and even towards arguing for remain - in tandem with Starmer (who he had pissed off by messing his lines on a radio interview and saying they wouldn't argue for remain but just for another ref). Thus losing all them seats and with it the election and much of the parties traditional support. I don't think anyone should be taking lessons off him.

edit: oh yeah, Jones identifies Clitheroe as being in the west country in that chapter as well.
if they collapsed in the face of change uk its very lucky they didnt win in '19. or ’17, for that matter. wouldnt take on their own mp's but were gonna take on the whole of the state and the ruling class?
if corbyn couldnt rally the membership to fight this, what would he do in a coup? for a man obsessed with allende, he seems to have learned fuck all from him. or maybe he did learn and sold everyone out before he got novichoked.
 
Richard Seymour's mailout just now is good.: Now, I've seen John McDonnell in the news explaining that he won't be asking for Starmer to resign. He says that would be behaving like the people who waged relentless, brutal war against Corbyn. I can see the game that McDonnell is playing. However, the rhetoric speaks volumes about what went wrong with the Corbyn leadership, and what goes wrong with the British Left in general. It's far too much in love with the moral high ground, when political battles aren't usually won on the moral high ground. And that's why we have Starmer, and that's why Starmer will get far worse before anything gets better.
Just on that bit , the left in labour are in no position to push for anything - to do so would just show their weakness.
 
I don't see Starmer resigning , partly because I can't see anyone else who could take over. Other than non MP Andy Burnham , who I can't see wanting to give up the regional power he has to be an MP again for a party unlikely to win the next election.
 
Burnham and Khan have to be the two that ultimately best placed. High enough profile positions that they get plenty of coverage (more than most SC members) but insulated from failure/infighting of the party.
 
I don't see Starmer resigning , partly because I can't see anyone else who could take over. Other than non MP Andy Burnham , who I can't see wanting to give up the regional power he has to be an MP again for a party unlikely to win the next election.
Rehabilitating Starmer now is unrealistic. You don't have to be a pinko radical to see that (Andrew Adonis, above, seems to). From that point-of-view, the sane thing is to do what the Tories did repeatedly after 1997. Get rid and worry about how shit the new leader is later.

ETA: but I also don't see it happening.
 
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I don't see Starmer resigning , partly because I can't see anyone else who could take over. Other than non MP Andy Burnham , who I can't see wanting to give up the regional power he has to be an MP again for a party unlikely to win the next election.
Of course if Corbyn hadn't had a couple of right wingers nominating him to get past the threshold figure, Burnham would probably have been leader for the last few years. Even more speculatively, might have won in 2017. Or... lost in 2017 and 2019 and just been replaced by kieth...
 
Rehabilitating Starmer now is unrealistic. You don't have to be a pinko radical to see that (Andrew Adonis, above, seems to). From that point-of-view, the sane thing is to do what the Tories did repeatedly after 1997. Get rid and worry about how shit the new leader is later.

ETA: but I also don't see it happening.
I take it that the talk a couple of weeks ago about Johnson resigning is now at a lower volume?
 
OIC. I thought Brogdale meant there was real talk in the real world.

When the time comes, he won't resign. He'll be ascended into heaven.
 
Keir Starmer has announced that the Labour Party have called it a day. They have sent in a winding up order and will cease as a party from next week.
 
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