Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

[dessiato]

The master criminal always makes one fatal error and theirs was minuting the meetings at which problems with grenfell tower were discussed and placing them on the internet

And this should be their undoing. Fingers crossed.

 

[marty21]

I have worked for a TMO , about 15 years ago I tempted for one for about 6 months. What struck me at the time was that the tenant board members did have a lot of influence. I've no idea if this was the case at KCTMO ,but at the one I worked for ,a tenant board member interviewed applicants for vacant flats , 100% of them were nominations from the Local Authority, so I would show the flat ,then they were interviewed, and if the board member didn't like them (it was as simple as that) he could turn them down and another applicant was shown the flat. I did question this with management but they basically shrugged their shoulders They had to keep the board happy.

I was working in Housing with TMOs started to be created ,a Labour policy sadly. I was against them at the time, because it removed accountability from the councillors even though they were on the management boards.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

God I hate that man

I take it you know of his consorting with the Hitler apologists of Traditional Britain? (ejaculating such gems as "The Poles were asking for it")

 

[Anudder Oik]

A whole new strand of madness here.

[ETA: I originally posted the video up - but posters below have suggested it may be best not to have done, so removed]

A witness claiming that Muslims think that it was a revenge attack for London Bridge & Manchester. Let's hope that narrative doesn't take hold.

Perhaps just break the link but leave it in place, if you think it should be debated. Personally, I don't think it is healthy or even intelligent on a debating forum to play the illiberal game known as "Safe Space or Echo chamber" where some stuff has to be hidden from view because some people are perhaps too scared or too sensitive to see something. Why be scared? Is this about free debate or feelings? Just because you post something doesn't mean you endorse it, does it?

Just do it in a way that doesn't give the uploaders any benefit, ie; broken link and don't watch the video to the end so it doesn't get the click, which can generate money and raise it in the rankings.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

I have worked for a TMO , about 15 years ago I tempted for one for about 6 months. What struck me at the time was that the tenant board members did have a lot of influence. I've no idea if this was the case at KCTMO ,but at the one I worked for ,a tenant board member interviewed applicants for vacant flats , 100% of them were nominations from the Local Authority, so I would show the flat ,then they were interviewed, and if the board member didn't like them (it was as simple as that) he could turn them down and another applicant was shown the flat. I did question this with management but they basically shrugged their shoulders They had to keep the board happy.

I was working in Housing with TMOs started to be created ,a Labour policy sadly. I was against them at the time, because it removed accountability from the councillors even though they were on the management boards.

I daresay tenant board members had way more influence then. Certainly the abolition of the Tenant Services Authority by Shapps since then won't have helped.

Around that time I was asked, as a TARA co chair, if I wanted to do the training to become part of the new arrangement (provided by the stock transferred RSL-I can't remember the jargon)...I did the training because it was a free course and qual, it would provide insight, put me in touch with housing activists etc. But it became very obvious that the very amateur nature and time intensive nature of things meant that the new arrangements would facilitate very limited oversight indeed of what the RSL were up to.

 

[Casual Observer]

Anywho, back on topic. Again Twitter, but this user has gone through the RBKC Grenfell Tower housing committee meeting, and you can clearly see residents complaints about the dangers of power surges, cladding and fire safety equipment are clearly ignored.

I was doing the same thing yesterday evening and summarised my clumsy findings in a couple of posts on here. Natalie's work is much more helpful and thorough. Her tweeting also goes beyond the 2013 power surge issue and looks at KCTMO's general performance with regard to Grenfell Tower.

If digging for information on the power surge issue, a difficulty is that the KCTMO minutes on their website only go back to the November 2013 meeting which is covered in the minutes published in January 2014. The power surges took place in May 2013. In other words, there will be one or two KCTMO meetings which took place between May 2013 and October 2013 which aren't available on the KCTMO site but which will undoubtedly have more info on the then more current power surge issue.

Having said that, there is another half-buried source of useful information here:

RBKC Committees > Home > Housing and Property Scrutiny Committee.

These are the meeting minutes for the RBKCC Housing and Property Scrutiny Committee. They start in July 2013 and cover the power surge issue in more detail. That link was difficult to find, it has much more info on the power surge issue and Natalie hasn't referred to it in any of her posts so I doubt if she has seen it. I don't Twitter or Facebook so would be extremely grateful if you could try to make her aware of it.

If anyone is still reading this post then my summary of the power surge issue is as follows... several surges took place in May 2013, 45 residents were affected by damage to appliances within their flats, a fault with an incoming mains cable was discovered and fixed but the even one and a half months later (July 2013) the Housing and Property Scrutiny Committee admit they aren't sure if the primary source of the problem had been rectified, KCTMO advised the affected residents to make claims on their own contents insurance policies but also seemingly made a claim on the KCTMO policy [Casual Observer thinks that's illegal but never mind], 25 of the 45 residents did make a claim via the KCTMO policy with Zurich Insurance but Zurich Insurance refused to pay out claiming KCTMO had done what could be reasonably expected of them to maintain the electrics in good order, KCTMO then offered to pay the affected residents £200 each (which they admit would not have covered the damaged items in many cases). There is also mention of more electric work being scheduled for later that July.

In other words, we know that RBKC and KCTMO are cunts but we can add Zurich Insurance to the list as well.

Fun fact not really related to this post: Ian Bone used to live in Grenfell Tower

 

[Chrispreece30]

The focus of discussions about the cause of the spread of the fire has been mainly about the cladding however other mistakes (including putting gas pipes in the stairwell) could have been made during the renovations. Not much has been made of the following so far, but it could be very significant. "To install the new pipes, the ‘fire stopping’ – systems used to seal openings and joints to prevent the spread of fire – would have had to be partially removed, under the “preferred option” listed in a report from 2012 by engineers Max Fordham. The document said this option was adopted.

The intention, according to the sustainability and energy statement, was to replace the fire stopping once the new pipes had been installed.

Max Fordham did not respond to enquiries about the safeguards put in place to ensure that fire stopping was replaced properly."
Grenfell renovation proposed temporary removal of fire protections | News | Inside Housing

 

[bimble]

There's photos being released now of inside the building, the ruins of people's homes. These being shown accompanying a police statement explaining that a new updated figure for the dead is expected tomorrow and that due to the ferocity of the fire it may be that despite every effort some victims may never be identified.

 

[Rob Ray]

the tenant board members did have a lot of influence

Mm thing is though KCTMO is enormous, incorporating nearly 10,000 people - 27% leaseholders. Problem with any bureaucracy, particularly one covering an area that large, is that the people with time, resources, contacts etc to get onto the boards will tend to be wealthier and are often brought on board specifically to back a particular faction.

 

[scifisam]

There's photos being released now of inside the building, the ruins of people's homes. These being shown accompanying a police statement explaining that a new updated figure for the dead is expected tomorrow and that due to the ferocity of the fire it may be that despite every effort some victims may never be identified.

In those pictures it looks like the internal walls have just gone

 

[agricola]

I was doing the same thing yesterday evening and summarised my clumsy findings in a couple of posts on here. Natalie's work is much helpful and thorough. Her tweeting also goes beyond the 2013 power surge issue and looks at KCTMO's general performance with regard to Grenfell Tower.

If digging for information on the power surge issue, a difficulty is that the KCTMO minutes on their website only go back to the November 2013 meeting which is covered in the minutes published in January 2014. The power surges took place in May 2013. In other words, there will be one or two KCTMO meetings which took place between May 2013 and October 2013 which aren't available on the KCTMO site but which will undoubtedly have more info on the then more current power surge issue.

Having said that, there is another half-buried source of useful information here:

RBKC Committees > Home > Housing and Property Scrutiny Committee.

These are the meeting minutes for the RBKCC Housing and Property Scrutiny Committee. They start in July 2013 and cover the power surge issue in more detail. That link was difficult to find, it has much more info on the power surge issue and Natalie hasn't referred to it in any of her posts so I doubt if she has seen it. I don't Twitter or Facebook so would be extremely grateful if you could try to make her aware of it.

If anyone is still reading this post then my summary of the power surge issue is as follows... several surges took place in May 2013, 45 residents were affected by damage to appliances within their flats, a fault with an incoming mains cable was discovered and fixed but the even one and a half months later (July 2013) the Housing and Property Scrutiny Committee admit they aren't sure if the primary source of the problem had been rectified, KCTMO advised the affected residents to make claims on their own contents insurance policies but also seemingly made a claim on the KCTMO policy [Casual Observer thinks that's illegal but never mind], 25 of the 45 residents did make a claim via the KCTMO policy with Zurich Insurance but Zurich Insurance refused to pay out claiming KCTMO had done what could be reasonably expected of them to maintain the electrics in good order. There is also mention of more electric work being scheduled for later that July.

In other words, we know that RBKC and KCTMO are cunts but we can add Zurich Insurance to the list as well.

Fun fact not really related to this post: Ian Bone used to live in Grenfell Tower

TBH it would be interesting to find out what KCTMO told Zurich in order for them to come to that conclusion.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Probably been posted already but I think the pop stars queuing up to join Simon Cowells' charity single for the Grenfell victims should get the inspiration for the lyrics of their song from this letter below.


Two women feared dead in Grenfell Tower tragedy were threatened with legal action - after raising alarm about fire safety
Mariem Elgwahry and Nadia Choucair were branded 'troublemakers' because they campaigned to make their homes safer

Grenfell Tower missing pair were sent legal threats after fire safety warning

 

[kebabking]

...The local residents need to take things further and make sure that nobody gets bought off, like accepting offers to relocate in Milton keynes, etc...

Some may wish to leave and build new lives elsewhere - as happens in the aftermath of every event of this nature - it's not for you, or any other self-appointed village Napoleon, to tell people where they can or must live.

Warwickshire, Worcestershire and Herefordshire councils (doubtless among many others) have let it be known that they will assist if tennant's wish to move away from London - and if they do then good luck to them.

 

[scifisam]

Yep. Family elsewhere, quieter location, chance of a garden, chance to get a bigger home if they're overcrowded, there are reasons people might want to move away.

Someone above said that nobody in social housing in Kensington wants to move away, but that's just not true - I used to be on a Homeswapper website and there were a fair few on there. But it wouldn't have been that easy for the Grenfell tenants to move if they wanted to because some people point blank refuse to live in a tower block even if it's in Kensington. Many people on Homeswapper say 'no estates' which I've always thought a little bizarre as it doesn't leave them with many options.

However, a genuine choice to move away is very, very different to being forced or even cajoled to leave. I hope the govt doesn't try to get away with saying any residents 'chose' to leave when the other option on offer was absolutely nothing, like they sometimes do to other homeless people in London.

 

[bi0boy]

In those pictures it looks like the internal walls have just gone

Yep, just metal and stone left really.

 

[OneStrike]

Some may wish to leave and build new lives elsewhere - as happens in the aftermath of every event of this nature - it's not for you, or any other self-appointed village Napoleon, to tell people where they can or must live.

Warwickshire, Worcestershire and Herefordshire councils (doubtless among many others) have let it be known that they will assist if tennant's wish to move away from London - and if they do then good luck to them.

Agree entirely, if those involved want to leave the area for whatever reason it must be facilitated, so long as the local council still commit to adding the homes they would have required in the borough should they have wanted to stay.

 

[killer b]

Perhaps just break the link but leave it in place, if you think it should be debated. Personally, I don't think it is healthy or even intelligent on a debating forum to play the illiberal game known as "Safe Space or Echo chamber" where some stuff has to be hidden from view because some people are perhaps too scared or too sensitive to see something. Why be scared? Is this about free debate or feelings? Just because you post something doesn't mean you endorse it, does it?

When a video has been made by a mad racist, it's usually to serve an ideological purpose - so if someone posts a video by a mad racist without saying anything about the dodginess of the source, posters are going to bring it up. To make sure other posters (and perhaps whoever posted it in the first place) are aware that the video isn't just a neutral bit of reportage.

And if a poster keeps on posting videos by mad racists without saying anything about the dodginess of the source, posters might be forgiven for thinking the person posting them might actually share the ideology pushed by the mad racist's video.

Either that or we're all snowflakes here. Not sure which.

 

[BemusedbyLife]

Yep. Family elsewhere, quieter location, chance of a garden, chance to get a bigger home if they're overcrowded, there are reasons people might want to move away.

Someone above said that nobody in social housing in Kensington wants to move away, but that's just not true - I used to be on a Homeswapper website and there were a fair few on there. But it wouldn't have been that easy for the Grenfell tenants to move if they wanted to because some people point blank refuse to live in a tower block even if it's in Kensington. Many people on Homeswapper say 'no estates' which I've always thought a little bizarre as it doesn't leave them with many options.

However, a genuine choice to move away is very, very different to being forced or even cajoled to leave. I hope the govt doesn't try to get away with saying any residents 'chose' to leave when the other option on offer was absolutely nothing, like they sometimes do to other homeless people in London.

May has said that everyone will be found a home in RBKC or a neighbouring borough within the next three weeks, I realise her promises are as honest as a £9 note but a Tory council may be reluctant to make a liar of her whilst all this crap is still out in the light of day

 

[fishfinger]

look at this cuntfop:
View attachment 109620

Rock Fielding-Mellen, AKA "Mock Grenfell 'n' I lied" or "I'm licked on Grenfell".

 

[frogwoman]

Tourists blasted for taking 'disaster selfies' next to Grenfell Tower

Wtf?!

 

[killer b]

Tourists blasted for taking 'disaster selfies' next to Grenfell Tower

Wtf?!

I was thinking some of the news reporting for this was a bit off colour for similar reasons - Jon Snow reporting from the scene with the smoking ruins behind him etc.

I imagine they think they're just paying their respects. There were loads of people taking selfies at St Annes Sq in Manchester where all the floral tributes to the bomb victims were - that felt a bit odd too.

 

[Orang Utan]

This is a bit fucking spooky:

 

[Dogsauce]

Do they just have the money lying around in an account? Knowing Tories it's more likely tied up in some sort of investment.

Knowing Tories it'll be invested in arms, tobacco and Rwandan machete factories.

 

[Anudder Oik]

Some may wish to leave and build new lives elsewhere - as happens in the aftermath of every event of this nature - it's not for you, or any other self-appointed village Napoleon, to tell people where they can or must live.

Warwickshire, Worcestershire and Herefordshire councils (doubtless among many others) have let it be known that they will assist if tennant's wish to move away from London - and if they do then good luck to them.

If people wish to choose that option of their own free will then by all means. The problem is if there are any attempts to coerce them (highly likely) and give them only the choice of leaving that area, which I understand is an active cleansing policy that the kensington council undertakes in favour of gentrification. There is also concern that the Grenfell land will be sold for private developement.

If a tenant turns down an offer to go outside the borough they are made to pay the consequences.

This from Grenfell Action group

Pants on Fire No.3 – Joint Award. Cllr Feilding Mellen and the RBKC Decant Policy

This offer of housing could be anywhere in the UK and, if refused, will result in the tenant making themselves intentionally homeless and removed from the housing register.

 

[ska invita]

This is a bit fucking spooky:

Tories: predictable same old shit since way back when

 

[Artaxerxes]

May has said that everyone will be found a home in RBKC or a neighbouring borough within the next three weeks, I realise her promises are as honest as a £9 note but a Tory council may be reluctant to make a liar of her whilst all this crap is still out in the light of day

I do not believe this to be physically possible.


Edit: missed the neighbouring borough bit, then it's possible but that's going to hurt other boroughs if it's not spread very wide

 

[YouSir]

May has said that everyone will be found a home in RBKC or a neighbouring borough within the next three weeks, I realise her promises are as honest as a £9 note but a Tory council may be reluctant to make a liar of her whilst all this crap is still out in the light of day

A permanent home or a temporary place? Not that I'm inclined to believe the Tories willing or capable of providing either.

 

[scifisam]

May has said that everyone will be found a home in RBKC or a neighbouring borough within the next three weeks, I realise her promises are as honest as a £9 note but a Tory council may be reluctant to make a liar of her whilst all this crap is still out in the light of day

It is a much more definite promise than most - not a lot of wiggle room there. I guess we'll all see in three weeks' time.

 

[bimble]

I hope people won't get distracted if the homeless survivors are treated really well now, housed in fine local housing and giant cheques presented to them on tv, it's the obvious visible thing to do to appease the rage against the systemic causes of what has happened.

 

[mauvais]

In those pictures it looks like the internal walls have just gone

Anything that's not a structural supporting wall - and these dividing walls won't have been - will just have been wood, plasterboard etc, so eventually lost.