Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

[ShiftyBagLady]

In the face of May's claim that she was being mindful of security issues when doing her visit privately, it almost looks as if queenie's visit is a deliberate editorial riposte. The reigning monarch and the heir to the throne both making a visit despite any security fears makes May look proper stupid.

I reckon may was told the queen intended to visit and she scheduled a hasty visit but was advised 'don't speak to real people, they make you look bad'.
Then the queen descends shaking hands and making small talk and Theresa cries in the toilet and despairs 'I can do it, if she can do it I can do it'

 

[J Ed]

Anyone have any insight into whether this might be true?

Video: Govt “puts ‘D-notice’ gag” on real #Grenfell death toll #nationalsecurity

 

[sunnysidedown]

Edit, as J Eds post.

 

[Crispy]

We don't know what actually happened yet and probably won't for several months, and the reasons are likely to be complicated.
The reporting in the media regarding technical issues has been poor so far.

100% agreed. The behaviour of building fires can be complicated and unintuitive, and often requires careful detective work to put the story together after the fact.

The cladding panels *may well* be at fault for the death toll. IMO, the lack of fire suppression and smoke extract are more important factors. Regardless of how the fire started or spread, that building was basically impossible to escape from. That is the greater crime.

 

[cupid_stunt]

In the face of May's claim that she was being mindful of security issues when doing her visit privately, it almost looks as if queenie's visit is a deliberate editorial riposte. The reigning monarch and the heir to the throne both making a visit despite any security fears makes May look proper stupid.

TBF there was little chance of anyone attacking the royals, whereas with May...

 

[Wilf]

By the by, just had this justgiving link from my union. The fact that it's from the union (UCU) and also that it has raised over £1m pretty much ensures it's legit:
Help raise £2000000 to Help the families of Grenfell Tower, West London who have been devastated by a fire which has destroyed their homes and taken loved ones.

 

[Teaboy]

Cladding for Grenfell Tower was cheaper, more flammable option

And before teuchter starts yapping again, I'm happy to confirm I don't have any technical knowledge of these materials and how much of a difference there is between them in terms of fire resistance.

There is a grade classification between Class A and Class B which is relatively significant. The FR version being Class A and the standard version Class B. That being said they are both well within regs and better than others that are out there.

I think we're about to discover the full limitations of the testing regime.

I once sat in a meeting with a testing authority, contractor and manufacturer regarding a product that wasn't performing on-site. The testing authority were asked about their testing and why the product was performing differently. The nonchalant reply was they only test in laboratory conditions. Great! Lets build more buildings inside laboratories!

I know of a insulated render company that have a unique detail as part of their system which enabled them to get a good fire rating. Unfortunately as contractors move from system to system as they move projects the actual workman either didn't know to do the detail or couldn't be bothered. The result being that a crucial firestopping detail was often not implemented on-site.

There is a lot of accusations being leveled at the panel but I think we are going to find the cause of this runs a lot deeper than what or wasn't in the core of the cladding panel.

 

[phillm]

 

[gawkrodger]

bollocks is there a D-notice (or whatever they're called now - DSMA?)

 

[DaveCinzano]

Anyone have any insight into whether this might be true?

Video: Govt “puts ‘D-notice’ gag” on real #Grenfell death toll #nationalsecurity

Doubt it, because:

1. Skwarkbox
2. There is no way it could be known exactly how many perished before the entire block had been painstakingly checked through
3. The fire was very public, and there is widespread acceptance/belief, based on the relatively small numbers of casualties in hospital, the ‘stay put’ advice, the ‘no one escaped the top three floors’ statements, that the total fatalities will likely rise very high

What possible benefit is there from obscuring an as-yet unknowable number which many will likely have accurately speculated upon?

 

[Anudder Oik]

 

[EastEnder]

It feels like at the moment there is zero chance of a rational assessment of risk that is going have much effect on popular opinion.

People are understandably angry that this can have happened, and the media is feeding that anger with all sorts of narratives about what led to this which aren't based on what actually happened, because they can't be. We don't know what actually happened yet and probably won't for several months, and the reasons are likely to be complicated.

Even the 100% nonsense story about the cladding having been installed to satisfy residents of a nearby luxury development has taken hold and I see it repeated everywhere in facebook comments and so on.

We don't know what changes in building regs might have prevented this failure, yet it's being widely presented that there were obvious dangers in current regs, changes to which have been blocked. We don't know if installing the slightly more expensive FR panels would have prevented it happening.

The reporting in the media regarding technical issues has been poor so far.

Many folk on here seem to be of the opinion that these technical questions have no bearing on the politics involved. It's easier to attribute blame without waiting for the facts to come out of course.

We do know that a tower block went up in flames in a manner that should never have been possible. This implies something technical was at fault.
We do know that residents had been complaining about safety issues for years & their complaints were ignored.
We do know that the type of cladding used on this tower block has been implicated in fires on other tower blocks, and is banned in other countries.
We do know that recommendations made after previous similar fires were not made mandatory, at the behest of the government, and primarily for cost reasons.

Even without knowing the full facts, I think there's enough there to justify peoples' anger.

 

[Wilf]

There is a grade classification between Class A and Class B which is relatively significant. The FR version being Class A and the standard version Class B. That being said they are both well within regs and better than others that are out there.

I think we're about to discover the full limitations of the testing regime.

I once sat in a meeting with a testing authority, contractor and manufacturer regarding a product that wasn't performing on-site. The testing authority were asked about their testing and why the product was performing differently. The nonchalant reply was they only test in laboratory conditions. Great! Lets build more buildings inside laboratories!

I know of a insulated render company that have a unique detail as part of their system which enabled them to get a good fire rating. Unfortunately as contractors move from system to system as they move projects the actual workman either didn't know to do the detail or couldn't be bothered. The result being that a crucial firestopping detail was often not implemented on-site.

There is a lot of accusations being leveled at the panel but I think we are going to find the cause of this runs a lot deeper than what or wasn't in the core of the cladding panel.

Cheers.

 

[gosub]

think it might have gone a bit different if they'd known Emma Coad was on the KCTMO Board

 

[editor]

I don't always agree with this woman, but this is spot on:

That tomb in the sky will be forever Theresa May’s monument. Grenfellmarks the spot and her visit marks the moment the last vestiges of her career were finally rubbed out. She made it her own yesterday by that fateful “visit” to a handful of senior fire officers, guarding her from any contaminating contact with the bereaved and newly homeless. Dead to emotion or empathy, she sealed her fate.

Precise blame comes later in the public inquiry: we are all overnight experts in cladding and sprinklers now. But political blame spreads right through the Conservative party, with no escape on offer. This goes far beyond the precise shockers – the Tory MPs who mockingly rejected housing regulation; the cuts to funding to councils responsible for retro-fitting fire suppressants; the disregard of coroner’s instructions after the 2009 Lakanal House tragedy; and even the plan to opt out of EU safety regulations. Conservative Kensington and Chelsea council allegedly blocking its ears to tenants’ well-founded anxiety is just the immediate scandal. But this event reaches far deeper, to the very sinews of its party’s policy.

That tower is austerity in ruins. Symbolism is everything in politics and nothing better signifies the May-Cameron-Osborne era that stripped bare the state and its social and physical protection of citizens. The horror of poor people burned alive within feet of the country’s grandest mansions, many of them empty, moth-balled investments, perfectly captures the politics of the last seven years. The Cameron, Osborne, Gove Notting Hill set live just up the road.


From the 40% cuts to local councils, to the bedroom tax and the housing benefit cap banishing people hundreds of miles from family and schools, the people spilling out on to the street, sheltered by churches and mosques, are the unwilling emblems of deliberate Conservative attacks.

Theresa May was too scared to meet the Grenfell survivors. She’s finished | Polly Toynbee

 

[Lorca]

about £5 grand apparently. cunts.

likely no housing money left in the pot, seeing as I believe the renovation of the House of Commons is going to cost us 3.5 billion-odd.

 

[Teaboy]

We do know that a tower block went up in flames in a manner that should never have been possible. This implies something technical was at fault.
We do know that residents had been complaining about safety issues for years & their complaints were ignored.
We do know that the type of cladding used on this tower block has been implicated in fires on other tower blocks, and is banned in other countries.
We do know that recommendations made after previous similar fires were not made mandatory, at the behest of the government, and primarily for cost reasons.

Even without knowing the full facts, I think there's enough there to justify peoples' anger.

Quite right. And has been said on this thread we do know all this happened in a climate of light touch regulation, arms length and non-accountable management agencies, swinging and vicious cuts to local authority budgets and a relenting demonisation of the people who called the block home.

 

[DaveCinzano]

From Construction News today, going with the race-to-the-bottom theme:

GRENFELL TOWER: RYDON REPLACED LEADBITTER AS CONTRACTOR

Rydon was not the original preferred contractor for refurbishment works on Grenfell Tower, it has emerged.

A contract to upgrade the 24-storey tower block was awarded to Rydon in 2014 and work was completed in June last year.

However, a Kensington and Chelsea Borough Council press release sent in October 2012, seen by Construction News, refers to Bouygues-owned Leadbitter as the original main contractor for works.

“With architects, Studio E, and contractor, Leadbitter, on board the works can be carried out as cost-effectively and quickly as possible, minimising disruption to residents,” the press release said.

The fire at the Kensington tower in the early hours of Wednesday has so far seen 30 confirmed fatalities.

Documents published by ITV show that Leadbitter originally quoted £11.27m to carry out the project, which was £1.6m above the council’s budget for the works.

The Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation, which managed and maintained the council’s housing stock, later put the contract back out to tender.

Rydon then took the contract on for £8.7m.

Rydon said this week that the refurbishment work it carried out “met all required building control, fire regulation and health and safety standards”.

Improvements mentioned in the 2012 press release included ”external cladding to provide an effective rain screen; double glazing to reduce noise, improve thermal efficiency and fuel economy; and new controlled heating and water systems”.

Yesterday prime minister Theresa May launched a public inquiry into the tragedy, in which at least 30 people are now known to have died.

Around 80 people have been treated in hospital and 12 are still in a critical condition.

A spokesman for Kensington and Chelsea Borough Council did not comment directly on the tender process, but a statement said: “We have heard a number of theories about the cause of the fire at Grenfell Tower. All of these will be thoroughly investigated as part of the formal investigation which has already begun.”

Bouygues and Rydon have been contacted for comment.​

 

[Sea Star]

I'm not sure where the £5k figure is coming from as it seems odd. £5k is nothing on a build this size. There must have been in the region of 3500m2 of cladding panels on this project. I would be amazed if they chose to go with this panel because it was a pound or so cheaper per m2.

Well, in TfL we have some huge projects - and my team fight hard to get changes to design and add ons built in in order to help with long term environmental targets and performance. In the last stages of the design is when our changes tend to kicked out because they've overspent on something and they need to balance costs. So even if the overspend is millions and our add ons are a few ks, they still get kicked out because at that point they are desperate to bring the total cost down as much as possible. So - I can believe that part is all I'm saying.

 

[gosub]

We do know that a tower block went up in flames in a manner that should never have been possible. This implies something technical was at fault.
We do know that residents had been complaining about safety issues for years & their complaints were ignored.
We do know that the type of cladding used on this tower block has been implicated in fires on other tower blocks, and is banned in other countries.
We do know that recommendations made after previous similar fires were not made mandatory, at the behest of the government, and primarily for cost reasons.

Even without knowing the full facts, I think there's enough there to justify peoples' anger.

We also know a judge has previously set the precident that if regs are knowingly not up to spec and you still adhere to the letter of the law rather than the spirit, you are culpable.

 

[butchersapron]

think it might have gone a bit different if they'd known Emma Coad was on the KCTMO Board

And member (past?) of the fire and emergency planning commtte or whatever it's called and been attacked by residents for being a placeman for the murderers on the 'board'. I was wondering why she was so quiet yesterday.

 

[Teaboy]

From Construction News today, going with the race-to-the-bottom theme:

GRENFELL TOWER: RYDON REPLACED LEADBITTER AS CONTRACTOR

Rydon was not the original preferred contractor for refurbishment works on Grenfell Tower, it has emerged.

A contract to upgrade the 24-storey tower block was awarded to Rydon in 2014 and work was completed in June last year.

However, a Kensington and Chelsea Borough Council press release sent in October 2012, seen by Construction News, refers to Bouygues-owned Leadbitter as the original main contractor for works.

“With architects, Studio E, and contractor, Leadbitter, on board the works can be carried out as cost-effectively and quickly as possible, minimising disruption to residents,” the press release said.

The fire at the Kensington tower in the early hours of Wednesday has so far seen 30 confirmed fatalities.

Documents published by ITV show that Leadbitter originally quoted £11.27m to carry out the project, which was £1.6m above the council’s budget for the works.

The Kensington and Chelsea Tenant Management Organisation, which managed and maintained the council’s housing stock, later put the contract back out to tender.

Rydon then took the contract on for £8.7m.

Rydon said this week that the refurbishment work it carried out “met all required building control, fire regulation and health and safety standards”.

Improvements mentioned in the 2012 press release included ”external cladding to provide an effective rain screen; double glazing to reduce noise, improve thermal efficiency and fuel economy; and new controlled heating and water systems”.

Yesterday prime minister Theresa May launched a public inquiry into the tragedy, in which at least 30 people are now known to have died.

Around 80 people have been treated in hospital and 12 are still in a critical condition.

A spokesman for Kensington and Chelsea Borough Council did not comment directly on the tender process, but a statement said: “We have heard a number of theories about the cause of the fire at Grenfell Tower. All of these will be thoroughly investigated as part of the formal investigation which has already begun.”

Bouygues and Rydon have been contacted for comment.​

Well, in TfL we have some huge projects - and my team fight hard to get changes to design and add ons built in in order to help with long term environmental targets and performance. In the last stages of the design is when our changes tend to kicked out because they've overspent on something and they need to balance costs. So even if the overspend is millions and our add ons are a few ks, they still get kicked out because at that point they are desperate to bring the total cost down as much as possible. So - I can believe that part is all I'm saying.

Yes, the stench of value engineering is all over this. Still though, £5k. The subbie would have knocked that off the price without blinking. What a mess.

 

[Dogsauce]

I don't always agree with this woman, but this is spot on:

Theresa May was too scared to meet the Grenfell survivors. She’s finished | Polly Toynbee

I dunno, it's been going on a lot longer than seven years. She's letting others off the hook by simply blaming it on Cameron etc.

 

[squirrelp]

The cladding panels *may well* be at fault for the death toll. IMO, the lack of fire suppression and smoke extract are more important factors. Regardless of how the fire started or spread, that building was basically impossible to escape from. That is the greater crime.

A fire brigade chap explained to me that fire safety was about having multiple safety in the chain. You must plan that something big might go wrong. So in this case there was an ignition source -> rapid spreading of fire due to cladding -> poor alarms -> no sprinklers. Lots of things going wrong or not happening.

I don't think the cladding issue is less important than the sprinklers. If there were sprinklers, you would still want to be safe even if the sprinkler system malfunctioned.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

likely no housing money left in the pot, seeing as I believe the renovation of the House of Commons is going to cost us 3.5 billion-odd.

They can glad the HoC in paraffin. I'll bring the Swan Vesta.

 

[teuchter]

We do know that a tower block went up in flames in a manner that should never have been possible. This implies something technical was at fault.

Absolutely agreed. Although we don't yet know to what extent that technical fault was predictable.

We do know that residents had been complaining about safety issues for years

Agreed

& their complaints were ignored.

Agreed, it appears that some of their complaints were ignored, but we don't yet know whether the issues they complained about were relevant to this fire

We do know that the type of cladding used on this tower block has been implicated in fires on other tower blocks, and is banned in other countries.

Agreed - I think. Not 100% clear precisely which elements of the system are banned in which circumstances in which countries; some of the reports I've read have been inconsistent

We do know that recommendations made after previous similar fires were not made mandatory, at the behest of the government,

There seem to have been a number of recommendations, for changes to multiple different bits of legislation and proceedure in various organisations, some of which have been implemented, and some of which are to be implemented on an undefined timescale (Part B amendments)

and primarily for cost reasons.

Agreed that cost reasons will certainly be amongst the reasons.

Even without knowing the full facts, I think there's enough there to justify peoples' anger.

Agreed. As I was careful to say in my post you quote, "people are understandably angry". It's not yet clear exactly where the anger should be directed though.

 

[Sea Star]

I don't always agree with this woman, but this is spot on:

Theresa May was too scared to meet the Grenfell survivors. She’s finished | Polly Toynbee

What a contrast was Jeremy Corbyn’s visit, hugging and embracing victims, promising to guarantee that never happens. No one could have devised a better parable to convey the difference between the two parties than those two leaders’ visits.

on an aside - she seems to be such of a fan of corbyn now but just two months ago

Wrong, wrong and wrong again. Was ever there a more crassly inept politician than Jeremy Corbyn, whose every impulse is to make the wrong call on everything?

Jeremy Corbyn is rushing to embrace Labour’s annihilation | Polly Toynbee

 

[Mordi]

I don't always agree with this woman, but this is spot on:

Theresa May was too scared to meet the Grenfell survivors. She’s finished | Polly Toynbee

My paranoia always gives these people too much credit, but I suspect that May is being forced (more by the situation than her incompetent party enemies) to take the fall for this one so that whichever fucker takes over the Tory party can try to distance themselves from it.

 

[Teaboy]

Even if the cladding installer has decided to stuff the cavity with petrol soaked newspaper and chucked a lit tab there for a laugh it still won't absolve the government of the wider culture that led to this. It a basic function of the government to keep its population safe as can be expected. Not even the most swivel eyed tory can claim they have fulfilled their duty.

 

[phillm]

think it might have gone a bit different if they'd known Emma Coad was on the KCTMO Board

Labour's new Kensington MP was on housing scrutiny committee