Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

[taffboy gwyrdd]

As if the poor sod isn't feeling shitty enough already... That's the sort of coverage that could drive someone to suicide...

Lucy Meadows RIP.

 

[scifisam]

Cannabis farms have caused quite a few house fires. I hope there isn't some illicit cause behind it as it would be used to direct blame and attention away from all the other failings. The cause of the fire is almost irrelevant, it's the failure of structural control mechanisms and the lack of political will to provide sprinklers and safe means of escape that need the most attention.

Yep. It wouldn't even make a difference if it turned out to be arson because it should not have spread like this .

 

[urbanspaceman]

Here are the components of a hybrid rocket motor, that is a type of rocket that uses solid fuel and gaseous oxidiser. The fuel is usually a polymer, often polythene. To improve the thrust, sometimes you mix in some aluminium powder (which burns hot and energetically). Running up the core of the motor is a empty channel, to ensure good contact between the oxidiser (usually just plain oxygen) and the fuel.

So, in effect, the idiots (or criminals ?) who put cladding on Grenfell Tower were essentially wrapping it in a huge rocket motor. The gap behind the cladding panels acted as the oxidiser channel, the polythene core of the panels as the fuel, and the Aluminium cladding, once ignited, as an accelerant. It's quite difficult to get Aluminium burning, but once it gets going, it's pretty nasty stuff, burning with an amazingly hot flame. This was nothing like a house fire - Grenfell Tower was more like a giant incendiray device.

I worked in chemical/oil&gas safety, and I am amazed that any halfway competent engineer would choose not to specify the alternative panel design with a completely inert rockwool filling.

 

[Wilf]

View attachment 109468
Residents furious as it emerges fire-resistant cladding for Grenfell Tower would have cost just £5,000
the tories like experts when it suits them i see

I'm not always a fan of the 'lead by experts' line, but in the circumstances of this fire, it's a pity they weren't lead by experts over the last couple of years. It's also a pity the prime minister's chief of staff sat on what the experts recommended.

Edit: sorry, yes, if I'd read to the bottom, I'd have seen it was a point you'd already made.

 

[A380]

Cladding for Grenfell Tower was cheaper, more flammable option

Looks like someone saved a few quid.

 

[ska invita]

Sun journalist 'impersonated Grenfell Tower victim's relative at hospital'

see also 'Theresa May impersonates Prime Minister to visit victims at hospital'

 

[teuchter]

I think someone has just looked at case studies for projects this contractor has done. I'm not sure how helpful stuff like this is really. They may be all ACM but its not always obvious which product is on the wall. One of the photos looks more like a Trespa system which is a high pressure laminate rather than an ACM.

Even if they are all ACM, even if they are all Reynabond, even if they all have the polyethylene core we still don't know anything like enough to say these flats are a danger. I'm still sticking with my theory that the cladding panels themselves were a factor but by no means the only thing going on.

It feels like at the moment there is zero chance of a rational assessment of risk that is going have much effect on popular opinion.

People are understandably angry that this can have happened, and the media is feeding that anger with all sorts of narratives about what led to this which aren't based on what actually happened, because they can't be. We don't know what actually happened yet and probably won't for several months, and the reasons are likely to be complicated.

Even the 100% nonsense story about the cladding having been installed to satisfy residents of a nearby luxury development has taken hold and I see it repeated everywhere in facebook comments and so on.

We don't know what changes in building regs might have prevented this failure, yet it's being widely presented that there were obvious dangers in current regs, changes to which have been blocked. We don't know if installing the slightly more expensive FR panels would have prevented it happening.

The reporting in the media regarding technical issues has been poor so far.

Many folk on here seem to be of the opinion that these technical questions have no bearing on the politics involved. It's easier to attribute blame without waiting for the facts to come out of course.

 

[gawkrodger]

May has u-turned again and announced she is going to visit people at the site

 

[Pickman's model]

.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Does she have something better to do ? What fucking benefit will that provide ?

 

[belboid]

It feels like at the moment there is zero chance of a rational assessment of risk that is going have much effect on popular opinion.

People are understandably angry that this can have happened, and the media is feeding that anger with all sorts of narratives about what led to this which aren't based on what actually happened, because they can't be. We don't know what actually happened yet and probably won't for several months, and the reasons are likely to be complicated.

Even the 100% nonsense story about the cladding having been installed to satisfy residents of a nearby luxury development has taken hold and I see it repeated everywhere in facebook comments and so on.

We don't know what changes in building regs might have prevented this failure, yet it's being widely presented that there were obvious dangers in current regs, changes to which have been blocked. We don't know if installing the slightly more expensive FR panels would have prevented it happening.

The reporting in the media regarding technical issues has been poor so far.

Many folk on here seem to be of the opinion that these technical questions have no bearing on the politics involved. It's easier to attribute blame without waiting for the facts to come out of course.

You're right, there's nothing to see here and everyone is getting very angry about nothing.

Twat.

 

[ruffneck23]

too late im afraid, she should have been there yesterday , before 8am , I mean the queen and william have even beaten her too it, just another nail

 

[Pickman's model]

May has u-turned again and announced she is going to visit people at the site

could it be that what so nearly happened to richard nixon in venezuela could happen to our own theresa may?

 

[killer b]

Does she have something better to do ? What fucking benefit will that provide ?

The news reports of residents savaging her will be of some benefit to our sense of justice, if nothing else.

 

[articul8]

As if the poor sod isn't feeling shitty enough already... That's the sort of coverage that could drive someone to suicide...

it's despicable, barely concealed racist attempt to blame a black guy for having a faulty fridge rather than the cunts who failed to listen to the residents' warnings and address the fire risk. The Sun also carried an article interviewing a Tory councillor saying the residents didn't want sprinklers because it would mean the works would have disrupted them for longer. As though it's the residents fault (with no evidence,of course, in fact all the evidence points the other way). Oh and blaming Europe or Greens for energy efficiency targets. Outsourcing and cost-cutting are to blame, together with contempt for the views of working class residents.

 

[Libertad]

Philip Davies, yet again, made a valuable contribution to the democratic process.

 

[Teaboy]

View attachment 109468
Residents furious as it emerges fire-resistant cladding for Grenfell Tower would have cost just £5,000
the tories like experts when it suits them i see

I'm not sure where the £5k figure is coming from as it seems odd. £5k is nothing on a build this size. There must have been in the region of 3500m2 of cladding panels on this project. I would be amazed if they chose to go with this panel because it was a pound or so cheaper per m2. Why would Reynabond even have two products with such a close pricing structure? The cladding package could have been worth as much as 1/2 million pounds, what is £5k in the scheme of things?

ACM's are a cheap way to clad a building but there are much cheaper ways of doing it. If this panel was chosen because it was cheaper the price saving must of been greater than 5k, it must have been. Of course there is the possibility that this particular panel was chosen for other reasons, maybe the colours the architect wanted were only available in it or the level of gloss finish?

 

[Kaka Tim]

Cladding for Grenfell Tower was cheaper, more flammable option

Looks like someone saved a few quid.

about £5 grand apparently. cunts.

 

[Beermoth]

It feels like at the moment there is zero chance of a rational assessment of risk that is going have much effect on popular opinion.

People are understandably angry that this can have happened, and the media is feeding that anger with all sorts of narratives about what led to this which aren't based on what actually happened, because they can't be. We don't know what actually happened yet and probably won't for several months, and the reasons are likely to be complicated.

Even the 100% nonsense story about the cladding having been installed to satisfy residents of a nearby luxury development has taken hold and I see it repeated everywhere in facebook comments and so on.

We don't know what changes in building regs might have prevented this failure, yet it's being widely presented that there were obvious dangers in current regs, changes to which have been blocked. We don't know if installing the slightly more expensive FR panels would have prevented it happening.

The reporting in the media regarding technical issues has been poor so far.

Many folk on here seem to be of the opinion that these technical questions have no bearing on the politics involved. It's easier to attribute blame without waiting for the facts to come out of course.

Yes, you're right.

If there's ever a time for dithery do-nothing liberalism it's right now.

 

[Teaboy]

it's despicable, barely concealed racist attempt to blame a black guy for having a faulty fridge rather than the cunts who failed to listen to the residents' warnings and address the fire risk. The Sun also carried an article interviewing a Tory councillor saying the residents didn't want sprinklers because it would mean the works would have disrupted them for longer. As though it's the residents fault (with no evidence,of course, in fact all the evidence points the other way). Oh and blaming Europe or Greens for energy efficiency targets. Outsourcing and cost-cutting are to blame, together with contempt for the views of working class residents.

Couple this with the constant references to 'green measures' in the Mail and Telegraph. The fight back has started with a vengeance to shift the blame anywhere but where it belongs.

 

[teuchter]

You're right, there's nothing to see here and everyone is getting very angry about nothing.

Twat.

I said neither of those things.

 

[Pickman's model]

Couple this with the constant references to 'green measures' in the Mail and Telegraph. The fight back has started with a vengeance to shift the blame anywhere but where it belongs.

the emergency plan has been invoked

 

[teuchter]

I'm not sure where the £5k figure is coming from as it seems odd. £5k is nothing on a build this size. There must have been in the region of 3500m2 of cladding panels on this project. I would be amazed if they chose to go with this panel because it was a pound or so cheaper per m2. Why would Reynabond even have two products with such a close pricing structure? The cladding package could have been worth as much as 1/2 million pounds, what is £5k in the scheme of things?

ACM's are a cheap way to clad a building but there are much cheaper ways of doing it. If this panel was chosen because it was cheaper the price saving must of been greater than 5k, it must have been. Of course there is the possibility that this particular panel was chosen for other reasons, maybe the colours the architect wanted were only available in it or the level of gloss finish?

It may have been as simple as someone asking the manufacturer which specification was suitable to meet relevant building regs, and the answer being that the slightly cheaper one met the relevant regs, because as far as I can work out it did.

 

[Kaka Tim]

I'm not sure where the £5k figure is coming from as it seems odd. £5k is nothing on a build this size.

it was reported on the bbc.

 

[polly]

In addition to the dodgy cladding, residents are saying on bbc news that the gas pipes were installed in the only emergency exit, ie the staircase, to cut costs. They had, of course, raised this with the council.

Sorry if this has been posted.

Reading everything but really struggling to find any words.

 

[SheilaNaGig]

too late im afraid, she should have been there yesterday , before 8am , I mean the queen and william have even beaten her too it, just another nail

In the face of May's claim that she was being mindful of security issues when doing her visit privately, it almost looks as if queenie's visit is a deliberate editorial riposte. The reigning monarch and the heir to the throne both making a visit despite any security fears makes May look proper stupid.

 

[Wilf]

Cladding for Grenfell Tower was cheaper, more flammable option

Omnis had been asked to supply Reynobond PE cladding, which is £2 cheaper per square metre than the alternative Reynobond FR, which stands for “fire resistant” to the companies that worked on refurbishing Grenfell Tower.

And before teuchter starts yapping again, I'm happy to confirm I don't have any technical knowledge of these materials and how much of a difference there is between them in terms of fire resistance.

 

[Teaboy]

it was reported on the bbc.

Oh sure. I just wandered where it originated. It may well be true but it would be surprising then again a lot of things in construction are surprising.

 

[not-bono-ever]

.

 

[Libertad]

Apologies if this has been posted before. This blog post addresses the BBC's silencing of residents' statements as "allegations" and K&C's “regeneration plan” for the estate.

What The MSM Isn’t Telling You About The Grenfell Tower Blaze