Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

[Pickman's model]

"Cundy also said it was wrong to suggest the 400 people reported missing, would mean 400 deaths, as one person was reported missing 46 times."

He said he hopes it's not triple figures, and I'd guess he has a rough idea so i'd speculate it's going to be around the 100 mark.

yeh let's hope not eh.

 

[bendeus]

if true, wow. This must not be forgotten, brushed under the carpet.

a national disgrace.

In fairness the article cautions against equating 400 reported missing with 400 being dead, stating that one person had been reported missing 46 times.

Nevertheless, it's utterly horrific. I can't quite get my brain to go there - those poor, poor people.

 

[Ted Striker]

Bernie Gunther mentioned earlier about them trying to pull a Hillsborough and blame the victims. Don't think its doable, not in todays world, even with their tame press and bullshit artists

Make no mistake. The residents have done the herculean exercise in over-supplying a relief effort.

The TMO and Council are circling the wagons.

 

[bendeus]

In fairness the article cautions against equating 400 reported missing with 400 being dead, stating that one person had been reported missing 46 times.

Nevertheless, it's utterly horrific. I can't quite get my brain to go there - those poor, poor people.

Oops, sry. Late to the game ^^^

 

[Cid]

I wonder if there was a "consultation", you know, one of the ones where the decision has already been made before you start, it's advertised poorly, the wrong people are consulted etc etc. By chance the consultation results in the decision that costs the least money.

I was involved in community action against cuts where we had proof that the council hadn't acted or consulted legally, we had advice from a leading law firm that this was the case, but nobody had the thousands of pounds behind an armchair to fight it in the deliberately minuscule window available to do so. Our council went into several primary schools to talk to kids and classed that as a full consultation!

There's a consultation document on the planning application page (engagement statement). Doesn't mention sprinklers. Or fire safety. At least not on a quick ctrl+f.

 

[Artaxerxes]

The National - a Scottish daily - is reporting FOUR HUNDRED people are missing
Police say 400 reported missing in Grenfell Tower fire

I'd be wary of that figure, the total number of residents was supposed to be just over 500.

Googling for another source brings up the below.

Police received 400 calls reporting missing people following Grenfell Tower fire

Police revealed today that they have received around 400 calls reporting people missing following the Grenfell Tower fire.

During a short appearance, Metropolitan Police Commander Stuart Cundy confirmed that there had been hundreds of calls following the launch of a criminal investigation. He downplayed the figure, saying it added up to more people than actually lived in the block.

One person was reported missing 46 times, he added.

 

[weepiper]

I'd be wary of that figure, the total number of residents was supposed to be just over 500.

Googling for another source brings up the below.

Police received 400 calls reporting missing people following Grenfell Tower fire

I hope so.

 

[cupid_stunt]

why are they suppressing the number of fatalities? the media usually go big on that - often exaggerating the numbers, but it seems clear that the numbers are much higher than the 17 confirmed. Im assuming the media have been told not to report the likely casualty figures - but why are they going along with it? why is it being done? They fear the reaction?

I don't think they are suppressing numbers, they just have no idea, one senior copper is saying they 'hope' it doesn't reach 100.

Until they make it safe enough to search the top floors, where most deaths are likely to have taken place, they are going to struggle on numbers.

 

[bimble]

I read yesterday that it will probably take months to identify all the dead. They can't come out with any figures until they are sure who it is they have found for obvious reasons.

 

[Pickman's model]

I read yesterday that it will probably take months to identify all the dead. They can't come out with any figures until they are sure who it is they have found for obvious reasons.

tosh. they can't come out with any figures until they know no body's counted more than once, yeh. but there would be no need to actually identify everyone before arriving at an accurate count of the dead.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I'd be wary of that figure, the total number of residents was supposed to be just over 500.

Googling for another source brings up the below.

Police received 400 calls reporting missing people following Grenfell Tower fire

500 official residents? You know that official tenancy records are going to be inaccurate too though don't you?

Also, whole families have died. There isn't anyone to report them missing.

 

[Yossarian]

why are they suppressing the number of fatalities? the media usually go big on that - often exaggerating the numbers, but it seems clear that the numbers are much higher than the 17 confirmed. Im assuming the media have been told not to report the likely casualty figures - but why are they going along with it? why is it being done? They fear the reaction?

The media are reporting likely casualty figures and have mostly adjusted them downward after earlier going with the highest estimates they could dig up - they're now saying 17 confirmed dead with the total likely to rise to maybe 70 or 80.

Papers going with the highest possible estimate seems a bit irresponsible and clickbaity, IMO - if it turns out to be 60 or so dead there'll be an element of 'at least it's not 400.'

 

[bimble]

tosh. they can't come out with any figures until they know no body's counted more than once, yeh. but there would be no need to actually identify everyone before arriving at an accurate count of the dead.

True, I suppose once they've accessed all over the building they could say we have found this many bodies but we can't tell you families if any of them are your missing.

 

[SpookyFrank]

why are they suppressing the number of fatalities? the media usually go big on that - often exaggerating the numbers, but it seems clear that the numbers are much higher than the 17 confirmed. Im assuming the media have been told not to report the likely casualty figures - but why are they going along with it? why is it being done? They fear the reaction?

It's going to take time to figure out how many people have died. Every reference I've seen in the media to the numer of confirmed casualties has come with a caveat, 'but this is expected to rise'.

 

[Artaxerxes]

This is the latest from the Guardian feed.

More than 70 people are believed to be unaccounted for since the blaze, according to the Press Associaiton.

Six bodies have been recovered from the gutted 24-storey tower, while 11 have been located inside, but cannot yet be removed.

Metropolitan Police commander Stuart Cundy responded to speculation that the number of dead could exceed 100, saying: “For those of us that have been down there, it’s pretty emotional, so I hope it is not triple figures, but I can’t be drawn on the numbers.”

More appeals were put up overnight on Thursday as relatives became increasingly distraught about their loved ones.

They just don't know right now, and as its a fire its going to be hard to identify a lot of remains, or find some remains if the heat was strong enough.

 

[Pickman's model]

True, I suppose once they've accessed all over the building they could say we have found this many bodies but we can't tell you families if any of them are your missing.

you so frequently do this, posting up a load of rubbish when you're pulled up on something. obviously two things will proceed in parallel, the first removing remains and determining how many discrete corpses there are, the second trying to identify the remains. it makes you look daft, saying they wouldn'ttry to identify as they went along

 

[bi0boy]

BBC are now saying "could exceed 60".

 

[Dogsauce]

tosh. they can't come out with any figures until they know no body's counted more than once, yeh. but there would be no need to actually identify everyone before arriving at an accurate count of the dead.

It's not safe for them to have a proper search yet, the bodies already found haven't been removed yet. The place will be full of debris. I think we can offer them some patience on this. Media speculation on bodycount feels really mawkish to me.

In terms of missing people, some will have lost mobile phones (or at least won't have chargers) so finding people involved even if they are safe and not hospitalised will be complicated. The collapse of the WTC after the 11/9 terror attack in New York initially had people speculating on 15-25,000 deaths, which later was revised down to about 6000 and ended up around half of that. I'm hoping there has been a significant overestimate in this event too, but it's looking pretty grim tbh.

 

[bimble]

you so frequently do this, posting up a load of rubbish when you're pulled up on something. obviously two things will proceed in parallel, the first removing remains and determining how many discrete corpses there are, the second trying to identify the remains. it makes you look daft, saying they wouldn'ttry to identify as they went along

ok. I am daft sometimes, keep your hair on. Was mainly just trying to say that I doubt there's a conspiracy of suppressing the numbers as someone had suggested.

 

[Pickman's model]

ok. I am daft sometimes, keep your hair on. Was mainly just trying to say that I doubt there's a conspiracy of suppressing the numbers as someone had suggested.

perhaps in future you could say what you mean and direct it to the person you intend it for.

 

[Spymaster]

It's not safe for them to have a proper search yet, the bodies already found haven't been removed yet. The place will be full of debris. I think we can offer them some patience on this. Media speculation on bodycount feels really mawkish to me.

In terms of missing people, some will have lost mobile phones (or at least won't have chargers) so finding people involved even if they are safe and not hospitalised will be complicated. The collapse of the WTC after the 11/9 terror attack in New York initially had people speculating on 15-25,000 deaths, which later was revised down to about 6000 and ended up around half of that. I'm hoping there has been a significant overestimate in this event too, but it's looking pretty grim tbh.

Survivors have had days to contact relatives and the authorities now. If 70 people thought to be in the building at the time of the blaze are still missing I strongly suspect that they didn't make it.

 

[two sheds]

Haven't read all the thread but has anyone pointed to last November blog from grenfellactiongroup?

KCTMO – Playing with fire!

It is a truly terrifying thought but the Grenfell Action Group firmly believe that only a catastrophic event will expose the ineptitude and incompetence of our landlord, the KCTMO, and bring an end to the dangerous living conditions and neglect of health and safety legislation that they inflict upon their tenants and leaseholders. We believe that the KCTMO are an evil, unprincipled, mini-mafia who have no business to be charged with the responsibility of looking after the every day management of large scale social housing estates and that their sordid collusion with the RBKC Council is a recipe for a future major disaster.

We have blogged many times on the subject of fire safety at Grenfell Tower and we believe that these investigations will become part of damning evidence of the poor safety record of the KCTMO should a fire affect any other of their properties and cause the loss of life that we are predicting:

Fire Safety Scandal At Lancaster West

More On Fire Safety

Another Fire Safety Scandal

Grenfell Tower Still A Fire Risk

In October 2015 a fire ripped through another KCTMO property, the 14 storey Adair Tower in North Kensington, causing mass panic and resulting in a number of residents taken to hospital suffering from smoke inhalation. It is reported that had it not been for the swift actions of the London Fire Brigade the consequences of this fire and potential loss of life could have been much worse.

and ending up with (their bold):

The Grenfell Action Group predict that it won’t be long before the words of this blog come back to haunt the KCTMO management and we will do everything in our power to ensure that those in authority know how long and how appallingly our landlord has ignored their responsibility to ensure the heath and safety of their tenants and leaseholders. They can’t say that they haven’t been warned!

From an excellent Metabunk thread (the blog post was so prescient that Mick West over there at first thought it was fake).

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Survivors have had days to contact relatives and the authorities now. If 70 people thought to be in the building at the time of the blaze are still missing I strongly suspect that they didn't make it.

Two little girls have only just been found in hospital, due to police protocols of a terrorist incident, i.e. People being unable to search for family in hospitals! It was only by chance that a nurse let someone in cos of the description she was given. It's fuckin bonkers!

 

[Wilf]

Victim blaming from the top down. Cunts. It's just ridiculous though. Regardless of what they say residents did or didn't want, the landlord has a duty of care with h&s laws which inform those responsibilities. They can't pin this on the residents.

... and even if it's true that there was a 'lack of consensus', it has to be seen in the context of the mistrust that built up over the years.

 

[Spymaster]

Victim blaming from the top down. Cunts. It's just ridiculous though. Regardless of what they say residents did or didn't want, the landlord has a duty of care with h&s laws which inform those responsibilities. They can't pin this on the residents.

Someone on a radio phone in, LBC I think, was suggesting that the blaze could have been started deliberately buy a long suffering resident to "make a point" that their complaints about fire safety were justified.

 

[stethoscope]

Looks like Paget-Brown has gone quiet on his twitter since the election.

 

[taffboy gwyrdd]

WTF?

Council leader claims sprinklers were not fitted as residents did not want the disruption

I find that hard to believe, considering the concerns raised by residents over the years.

Also from that article: British Automatic Fire Sprinkler Association has put the cost of installing a sprinkler system at £200,000.

It's bollocks. Council's/RSLs often do work that annoys residents, rightly or wrongly. Every part of the establishment is on the backfoot over this. The PR wonks will be on big overtime.

 

[baffled]

Bernie Gunther mentioned earlier about them trying to pull a Hillsborough and blame the victims. Don't think its doable, not in todays world, even with their tame press and bullshit artists

Hillsborough is mentioned in this article which I initially agreed with but the way the media have behaved in the last day or 2 I'm starting to wish they'd leave them the fuck alone.

Why it is vital to amplify the distraught voices of Grenfell Tower residents who were ignored for too long | JOE.co.uk

Edit; deleted cut and paste due to weird format

 

[Cid]

Haven't read all the thread but has anyone pointed to last November blog from grenfellactiongroup?

KCTMO – Playing with fire!





and ending up with (their bold):



From an excellent Metabunk thread (the blog post was so prescient that Mick West over there at first thought it was fake).

Been linked to quite a few times... But it's helpful to have it reposted as the thread's moving quickly.

 

[existentialist]

500 official residents? You know that official tenancy records are going to be inaccurate too though don't you?

Also, whole families have died. There isn't anyone to report them missing.

And, of course, one of the reasons that the figure is likely to be low is that, with the disabilities and welfare policies pursued by government over the last 10+ years, there is going to be quite a lot of informal accommodation - sofa surfers, etc. More than there might have been in a society with even slightly moer enlightened social policies than ours.