Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

[Who PhD]

Who will they attack, the police, the emergency services, local shops?, riots don't often affect the powers that have caused the greivances.

the council?

 

[bimble]

So a Criminal Investigation - has anyone seen somewhere an explanation of what this is likely to mean (as opposed to just an inquiry) does it mean that this is now manslaughter in the eyes of the law maybe?

 

[brogdale]

I expect this has been posted elsewhere in the thread, but it wasn't until this morning that I read this particular account...with tears in my eyes...tears of anger.

Government delay in reviewing fire safety regulations 'putting tower blocks at risk' | News | Inside Housing

He added: “We still have 4,000 older tower blocks in the UK which have the same regulations applied to them. The message to other social landlords and housing providers is unless there is a review of [part B] of the regulations you could face multi-million pound legal costs and compensation should you experience a Lakanal House tragedy.”

Mr King is concerned about the “failure of three successive government ministers” to review building regulations related to fire safety.

Rage.

 

[Orang Utan]

So a Criminal Investigation - has anyone seen somewhere an explanation of what this is likely to mean (as opposed to just an inquiry) does it mean that this is now manslaughter in the eyes of the law maybe?

I don't think they can suspect that until a full investigation has occurred. Also, they could be suspecting arson.

 

[EastEnder]

So a Criminal Investigation - has anyone seen somewhere an explanation of what this is likely to mean (as opposed to just an inquiry) does it mean that this is now manslaughter in the eyes of the law maybe?

Presumably a criminal investigation is undertaken in order to ascertain whether any law has been broken. Once any evidence is found, charges might then be brought to the CPS. It's probably too early to be talking about any specific charges at this stage.

 

[cupid_stunt]

WTF?

Council leader claims sprinklers were not fitted as residents did not want the disruption

I find that hard to believe, considering the concerns raised by residents over the years.

Also from that article: British Automatic Fire Sprinkler Association has put the cost of installing a sprinkler system at £200,000.

 

[bimble]

Yep. Met police commander in the indy;

"We as the police have started an investigation, I mentioned when I was down at the scene this morning that one of our very senior investigating officers is leading that for us," said Metropolitan Police commander Stuart Cundy. "We as the police, we investigate criminal offences - I am not sitting here and saying there are criminal offences that have been committed, that's why you do an investigation, to establish it."

This is going to take years isn't it.

 

[Cid]

So a Criminal Investigation - has anyone seen somewhere an explanation of what this is likely to mean (as opposed to just an inquiry) does it mean that this is now manslaughter in the eyes of the law maybe?

For corporate manslaughter you need a gross breach of a duty of care, but it's too early to know anything.

 

[teqniq]

WTF?

Council leader claims sprinklers were not fitted as residents did not want the disruption

I find that hard to believe, considering the concerns raised by residents over the years.

Also from that article: British Automatic Fire Sprinkler Association has put the cost of installing a sprinkler system at £200,000.

Yeah I saw that too. I smell bullshit.

 

[weepiper]

The National - a Scottish daily - is reporting FOUR HUNDRED people are missing
Police say 400 reported missing in Grenfell Tower fire

 

[Pickman's model]

Who will they attack, the police, the emergency services, local shops?, riots don't often affect the powers that have caused the greivances.

so if they do in their wrath and grief riot you'll be standing there to condemn them for not hitting what you consider the right and proper target

 

[Ted Striker]

WTF?

Council leader claims sprinklers were not fitted as residents did not want the disruption

I find that hard to believe, considering the concerns raised by residents over the years.

Also from that article: British Automatic Fire Sprinkler Association has put the cost of installing a sprinkler system at £200,000.

That's fucking enraging. Spidey senses go into overdrive when you read things like "Nick Paget-Brown, the Tory leader of Kensington and Chelsea Council, said there was not a "collective view" among residents in favour of sprinklers."

Vagueness and double-speak to point blame anywhere other than it should land. (Before you even consider that it's their responsibility to maybe do unpopular things to ensure peoples safety)

Prepare for battle with these people. There is one on the cards

 

[Pickman's model]

The National - a Scottish daily - is reporting FOUR HUNDRED people are missing
Police say 400 reported missing in Grenfell Tower fire

FOUR HUNDRED? fuck me, if it's that many the police may as well start dismantling the rkbc town hall now to stop other people doing it.

the murder of grenfell tower

 

[SE25]

The National - a Scottish daily - is reporting FOUR HUNDRED people are missing
Police say 400 reported missing in Grenfell Tower fire

if true, wow. This must not be forgotten, brushed under the carpet.

a national disgrace.

 

[Cid]

WTF?

Council leader claims sprinklers were not fitted as residents did not want the disruption

I find that hard to believe, considering the concerns raised by residents over the years.

Also from that article: British Automatic Fire Sprinkler Association has put the cost of installing a sprinkler system at £200,000.

Thing is I guarantee that they'd take fitting sprinklers as an excuse to cut back on some other area. And then probably not properly maintain/test them. This is about a much wider culture of neglect.

 

[DotCommunist]

Prepare for battle with these people. There is one on the cards

Bernie Gunther mentioned earlier about them trying to pull a Hillsborough and blame the victims. Don't think its doable, not in todays world, even with their tame press and bullshit artists

 

[existentialist]

That's fucking enraging. Spidey senses go into overdrive when you read things like "Nick Paget-Brown, the Tory leader of Kensington and Chelsea Council, said there was not a "collective view" among residents in favour of sprinklers."

Vagueness and double-speak to point blame anywhere other than it should land. (Before you even consider that it's their responsibility to maybe do unpopular things to ensure peoples safety)

Prepare for battle with these people. There is one on the cards

I'm just trying, with what we know about K&C's high-handed approach to tenants, what this uncharacteristically open and communicative intervention would have looked like. Because, with all the history, the mere notion of them genuinely asking tenants what they wanted, and then actually listening to their responses, seems unlikely.

More likely is that someone said "oh, you realise sprinklers will add <insert huge timespan> to the project and be very disruptive, and will cost LOADS, but it's OK because your flats are fireproof anyway...sorry, what were you saying about sprinklers?"

 

[DaveCinzano]

One of council boss Nick Paget-Brown's pals is Victoria Borthwick, who was Kensington's MP from 2015 until her ouster the other day.

Borthwick was also a Deputy Mayor and an MLA, and for several months after her election to Parliament she continued taking expenses for both those roles, making her a triple-snouter.

 

[mauvais]

So a Criminal Investigation - has anyone seen somewhere an explanation of what this is likely to mean (as opposed to just an inquiry) does it mean that this is now manslaughter in the eyes of the law maybe?

It doesn't immediately mean anything - just that there is the vaguest potential for criminal prosecution. Making it a criminal investigation introduces a higher burden in terms of process (evidentiary requirements etc) from the outset, which will be significant if it does ultimately go anywhere.

 

[Pickman's model]

Bernie Gunther mentioned earlier about them trying to pull a Hillsborough and blame the victims. Don't think its doable, not in todays world, even with their tame press and bullshit artists

the fucking bbc have been appalling. i watched the first few minutes of the 10 o'clock news last night, and i had to switch it off after seeing those two poor brothers describing how they lost their brother. why would anyone intrude into people's grief in that way i don't know, why anyone would make someone describe the last phone call they had ending in the apparent asphyxiation of a loved one...

it beggars belief, it really does.

 

[Plumdaff]

WTF?

Council leader claims sprinklers were not fitted as residents did not want the disruption

I find that hard to believe, considering the concerns raised by residents over the years.

Also from that article: British Automatic Fire Sprinkler Association has put the cost of installing a sprinkler system at £200,000.

I wonder if there was a "consultation", you know, one of the ones where the decision has already been made before you start, it's advertised poorly, the wrong people are consulted etc etc. By chance the consultation results in the decision that costs the least money.

I was involved in community action against cuts where we had proof that the council hadn't acted or consulted legally, we had advice from a leading law firm that this was the case, but nobody had the thousands of pounds behind an armchair to fight it in the deliberately minuscule window available to do so. Our council went into several primary schools to talk to kids and classed that as a full consultation!

 

[Pickman's model]

It doesn't immediately mean anything - just that there is the vaguest potential for criminal prosecution. Making it a criminal investigation introduces a higher burden in terms of process (evidentiary requirements etc) from the outset, which will be significant if it does ultimately go anywhere.

it means "looks at us, we're doing something"

 

[bi0boy]

FOUR HUNDRED? fuck me, if it's that many the police may as well start dismantling the rkbc town hall now to stop other people doing it.

the murder of grenfell tower

"Cundy also said it was wrong to suggest the 400 people reported missing, would mean 400 deaths, as one person was reported missing 46 times."

He said he hopes it's not triple figures, and I'd guess he has a rough idea so i'd speculate it's going to be around the 100 mark.

 

[SE25]

the fucking bbc have been appalling. i watched the first few minutes of the 10 o'clock news last night, and i had to switch it off after seeing those two poor brothers describing how they lost their brother. why would anyone intrude into people's grief in that way i don't know, why anyone would make someone describe the last phone call they had ending in the apparent asphyxiation of a loved one...

it beggars belief, it really does.

they are fucking vultures

 

[DaveCinzano]

Bernie Gunther mentioned earlier about them trying to pull a Hillsborough and blame the victims. Don't think its doable, not in todays world, even with their tame press and bullshit artists

Oh ye of little faith.

• Yesterday the Mail went big on the whole FIRST PICTURES OF MAN WHOSE FAULTY FRIDGE BURNED DOWN TOWER BLOCK
• On Newsnight last night Kensington & Chelsea council leader Nick Paget-Brown blamed residents for the lack of a sprinkler system

 

[Ted Striker]

I'm just trying, with what we know about K&C's high-handed approach to tenants, what this uncharacteristically open and communicative intervention would have looked like. Because, with all the history, the mere notion of them genuinely asking tenants what they wanted, and then actually listening to their responses, seems unlikely.

More likely is that someone said "oh, you realise sprinklers will add <insert huge timespan> to the project and be very disruptive, and will cost LOADS, but it's OK because your flats are fireproof anyway...sorry, what were you saying about sprinklers?"

Quite.

It would go something like a fishing expedition to find one voice (maybe with a bit of obfuscation/general steering - especially eased with multitude of local language barriers and general understanding) that aligned with the desired course of action, and represent that in an official minutes as the 'general feedback'.

(edit - just read the 2nd paragraph - actually exactly as you describe Are you sure you don't work for them )

 

[Pickman's model]

One of council boss Nick Paget-Brown's pals is Victoria Borthwick, who was Kensington's MP from 2015 until her ouster the other day.

Borthwick was also a Deputy Mayor and an MLA, and for several months after her election to Parliament she continued taking expenses for both those roles, making her a triple-snouter.

victoria borthwick: an artist's impression

 

[Treacle Toes]

WTF?

Council leader claims sprinklers were not fitted as residents did not want the disruption

I find that hard to believe, considering the concerns raised by residents over the years.

Also from that article: British Automatic Fire Sprinkler Association has put the cost of installing a sprinkler system at £200,000.

Victim blaming from the top down. Cunts. It's just ridiculous though. Regardless of what they say residents did or didn't want, the landlord has a duty of care with h&s laws which inform those responsibilities. They can't pin this on the residents.

 

[Kaka Tim]

why are they suppressing the number of fatalities? the media usually go big on that - often exaggerating the numbers, but it seems clear that the numbers are much higher than the 17 confirmed. Im assuming the media have been told not to report the likely casualty figures - but why are they going along with it? why is it being done? They fear the reaction?

 

[EastEnder]

The National - a Scottish daily - is reporting FOUR HUNDRED people are missing
Police say 400 reported missing in Grenfell Tower fire

I wonder, where did they get that figure from? Is it speculation by individual officers, or an official figure not yet released to the public? It just sounds so high as to be hard to believe... I hope it's not true!