Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

[trashpony]

Listening to the summary, I’m just left with the feeling that it was only luck that more people didn’t die that day. 600 people and their families, friends and their community’s lives forever scarred through corporate greed.

It’s absolutely shameful.

 

[taperoo2k]

Listening to the summary, I’m just left with the feeling that it was only luck that more people didn’t die that day. 600 people and their families, friends and their community’s lives forever scarred through corporate greed.

It’s absolutely shameful.

I've just finished reading the part of the report into the deaths of the people who lived in Grenfell. It's left me in tears, so many lives lost.
Some tried to escape but were overcome by the carbon monoxide and other gasses. Others remained in their flats and died including
whole families. Some were unaware of the fire and died in their beds.


One thing is clear we need a return to the rigorous regulation of fire safety, it should have never been delegated to the private
sector. A massive failure on the part of successive Governments.

 

[brogdale]

A reminder of the calibre of psychopathically ideological "governance" that resulted in Grenfell.

 

[trashpony]

A reminder of the calibre of psychopathically ideological "governance" that resulted in Grenfell.

View attachment 441166

While you have a point, Grenfell happened a year after Brexit. Brexit didn’t cause Grenfell.

 

[brogdale]

While you have a point, Grenfell happened a year after Brexit. Brexit didn’t cause Grenfell.

Indeed; it was the form of neoliberal 'governance' that recklessly privileged accumulation over safety/lives that caused Grenfell, but that was exemplified by extremists like Rees-Mogg who saw brexit as a potential to accelerate the process.

 

[brogdale]

Just look at the cunts scurry out...

 

[taperoo2k]

I'm not shocked by that in the slightest. If you've watched Parliament for long enough you'll
know that's engrained behaviour. No matter what is going on in the chamber.

 

[PTK]

It is an absolute disgrace that many MPs did not stay in the Chamber of the House of Commons for the statement on the Grenfell Tower inquiry. Is there any way of checking who was there and who was not?

 

[lazythursday]

I'm not shocked by that in the slightest. If you've watched Parliament for long enough you'll
know that's engrained behaviour. No matter what is going on in the chamber.

I wouldn't have been shocked six months ago. I am now that barely 20% of them are Tories, plus a huge percentage are new in the job.

 

[GarveyLives]

​

I'm not shocked by that in the slightest. If you've watched Parliament for long enough you'll
know that's engrained behaviour. No matter what is going on in the chamber.

It is an absolute disgrace that many MPs did not stay in the Chamber of the House of Commons for the statement on the Grenfell Tower inquiry. Is there any way of checking who was there and who was not?

I wouldn't have been shocked six months ago. I am now that barely 20% of them are Tories, plus a huge percentage are new in the job.

The real "shock" is that Robert Peston and people like him are sufficiently deluded to believe that the Members of Parliament he refers to and people like them have any interest whatsoever in the deceased and surviving victims of the Grenfell Tower massacre and people like them.

 

[GarveyLives]

The Attorney General has agreed to issue an undertaking that oral evidence given by individuals cannot be used in any subsequent prosecution of them. She has declined the request from the inquiry to extend this undertaking to companies. (The inquiry had asked for this because of concerns that some people - the obvious case being sole traders - might invoke the right not to incriminate the companies they effectively embodied). Attorney Generals decision letter here (PDF) and a FAQ about it here (PDF).

Grenfell United statement about the decision

Spoiler: Statement

Hearings resume next Monday March 2nd.

"Witnesses from firms called to the Grenfell inquiry have won their fight for immunity from prosecution for their evidence, despite a lawyer for the victims describing the idea as “abhorrent”.

Suella Braverman, the new attorney general, has accepted a request from the inquiry’s chairman after architects and builders behind the tower’s refurbishment threatened to withhold testimonies ..."

Corporate witnesses in Grenfell Tower inquiry given immunity from prosecution

26 February 2020: Attorney General provides undertaking (to individuals) for Grenfell Tower Inquiry

While hearings were suspended the Inquiry revisited the issue of the undertaking given by the Attorney General that evidence given in the public hearings cannot be used in any subsequent prosecution of the person who gives it. (But can of course be used in the prosecution of others).

The Inquiry had originally asked that this assurance applied to 'legal persons' (ie. companies) as well as 'natural persons' (human beings, or what passes for such in the social housing and building sectors). They had in mind that sole traders, such as some of the independent consultants used during the refurbishment of Grenfell, and directors of some of the larger companies who can afford better quality legal representation, might claim immunity from self-incrimination (ie. refuse to answer questions), if their evidence could be argued to be evidence given 'by' the company they embodied.

The Attorney General initially declined to extend the assurance to 'legal persons'. Lawyers for some 'legal persons' then clarified that their clients did indeed intend to try to avoid answering questions by claiming their right not to self-incriminate. (I suspect that the detailed and fairly intense questioning faced by the first witnesses before hearings were suspended may have focused minds among some of them). The Inquiry asked the Attorney General to reconsider her decision and she agreed.

The correspondence regarding all this can be found on this page, including the correspondence from lawyers on behalf of 'legal persons'. The Attorney General's factsheet on her revised decision is here (PDF file).

1 June 2020: Attorney General extends undertaking for Grenfell Tower Inquiry (i.e. to non-human legal persons such as companies and partnerships)

Now:

"Police are under pressure to accelerate the criminal investigation into the Grenfell Tower fire after an excoriating report found that companies operated with “systematic dishonesty” and that all 72 deaths were avoidable ...

... the Met’s deputy assistant commissioner, Stuart Cundy, immediately pleaded for patience, saying it would take a further 12 to 18 months to examine the inquiry report “line by line” before files could be sent to the CPS to weigh possible charges.

More than 180 police officers are investigating 58 suspected individuals and 19 companies, with potential charges including corporate manslaughter, gross negligence manslaughter, fraud and misconduct in public office ..."

Police under pressure to accelerate criminal investigation into Grenfell fire

Potentially nine years to investigate the Grenfell Tower massacre to the extent where the prosecuting authorities can consider the possibility of criminal charges being brought.

 

[PTK]

The names of the companies responsible should be mud.

 

[taperoo2k]

I wouldn't have been shocked six months ago. I am now that barely 20% of them are Tories, plus a huge percentage are new in the job.

Like I said it's engrained behaviour. New MP's will likely have been told by those who've been in Parliament for
a long time that it's acceptable to leave the chamber after PMQ's. I think it's something the Speaker needs to look
at. But he's about as useful as a chocolate tea pot.

 

[brogdale]

The names of the companies responsible should be mud.

and, in compensation, their businesses sanctioned financially to the point that they have to close as a warning to shareholders of other companies tempted to privilege profit over life.

 

[Crispy]

Privatising the Building Research Establishment was such a mistake. Rather than a public body with a public mission to do primary research into construction materials and technologies, it became a "lab for hire" who could be persuaded to fudge the experiments in order to get the desired results.

The holowing out of LA building control departments in favour of private Approved Inspectors has a similar confilct of interest. I've worked with some AIs who, while careful to work within the letter of the law, are very bendy when it comes to the spirit.

 

[lazythursday]

Like I said it's engrained behaviour. New MP's will likely have been told by those who've been in Parliament for
a long time that it's acceptable to leave the chamber after PMQ's. I think it's something the Speaker needs to look
at. But he's about as useful as a chocolate tea pot.

Well in the normal course of events it probably is acceptable - I don't expect my MP to sit in every debate, though I do want them to engage with those most important to the constituency. But this is a major national moment, it's not business as usual. Aren't you shocked that the bulk of Labour and LibDem MPs would not bother hanging around for the Grenfell announcement / debate?

 

[taperoo2k]

Well in the normal course of events it probably is acceptable - I don't expect my MP to sit in every debate, though I do want them to engage with those most important to the constituency. But this is a major national moment, it's not business as usual. Aren't you shocked that the bulk of Labour and LibDem MPs would not bother hanging around for the Grenfell announcement / debate?

It's the disdain that shocked me, not the mere act of MPs leaving the chamber.

 

[taperoo2k]

Emily Maitlis points out she ignored producers wanting her to shut a resident up during a Newsnight broadcast outside Grenfell. She ignored the producer.

 

[bluescreen]

BBC's precious 'impartiality'. She did well to ignore them.
Neither Maitlis nor Sopel works for them any more.

 

[Lurdan]

Inside Housing produce a handy checklist:
What the Grenfell Tower Inquiry report said about the key players in the disaster (archived)

Their checklist of key players doesn't include the Government (although they published an article yesterday about it's failings as set out in the report).

That aside it is very close to the roll call of those most responsible in Stephanie Barwise's Phase 2 closing statement, made on behalf of BSR (Bereaved Survivors and Relatives) Team 1 back in November 2022. A transcript of that is here.


Meanwhile Tony Blair, once famous for his ability to 'read the room' and produce 'well chosen words appropriate to the occasion' had this to say today to Sky News

Tragedies like Grenfell cannot be completely avoided, says Sir Tony Blair - Sky News

Sir Tony was asked whether he accepted that the tragedies of Grenfell, the infected blood scandal and the Post Office scandal meant there had been a "failure of leadership" in government.
"This is a difficult thing to say, but it's the honest truth - however good your system is and however well-intentioned it is, and however hard people work, they're going to make mistakes," he replied. It's important that you hold people accountable for those mistakes, of course - but I don't think you're ever going to get a situation where decisions are perfectly taken in perfect circumstances and there aren't accidents or tragedies that occur. It's just important every time they do occur to try and learn the lessons of them."

Sir Tony was speaking just a day after a landmark report into the tragedy by Grenfell Inquiry chair Sir Martin Moore-Bick concluded the government was "well aware" of the deadly risks posed by combustible cladding and insulation a year before the fire broke out but "failed to act on what it knew".

One of the reports key findings is precisely that all of the deaths were avoidable.

 

[bluescreen]

I like the way that Maitils says the victims were 'killed'. Emphasising that it didn't 'just happen'.

 

[PTK]

Inside Housing produce a handy checklist:
What the Grenfell Tower Inquiry report said about the key players in the disaster (archived)

Their checklist of key players doesn't include the Government (although they published an article yesterday about it's failings as set out in the report).

That aside it is very close to the roll call of those most responsible in Stephanie Barwise's Phase 2 closing statement, made on behalf of BSR (Bereaved Survivors and Relatives) Team 1 back in November 2022. A transcript of that is here.


Meanwhile Tony Blair, once famous for his ability to 'read the room' and produce 'well chosen words appropriate to the occasion' had this to say today to Sky News

Tragedies like Grenfell cannot be completely avoided, says Sir Tony Blair - Sky News



One of the reports key findings is precisely that all of the deaths were avoidable.

Note that Blair deploys the straw man of "perfect".

 

[GarveyLives]

Meanwhile Tony Blair, once famous for his ability to 'read the room' and produce 'well chosen words appropriate to the occasion' had this to say today to Sky News

Tragedies like Grenfell cannot be completely avoided, says Sir Tony Blair - Sky News

One of the reports key findings is precisely that all of the deaths were avoidable.

Note that Blair deploys the straw man of "perfect".

It may be worth comparing that political ghoul's 'analysis' with that of another former leader of the same political party (who actually went to meet survivors of the massacre on the day after it occurred and who has offered support for them in the intervening seven years):

​

 

[PTK]

It may be worth comparing that political ghoul's 'analysis' with that of another former leader of the same political party (who actually went to meet survivors of the massacre on the day after it occurred and who has offered support for them in the intervening seven years):

​

Thank you for this. Corbyn is very good.

 

[GarveyLives]

Police under pressure to accelerate criminal investigation into Grenfell fire

Potentially nine years to investigate the Grenfell Tower massacre to the extent where the prosecuting authorities can consider the possibility of criminal charges being brought.

... or longer:

"Justice for those responsible for the 72 deaths in the Grenfell Tower fire may not come until the end of this decade, a former chief prosecutor has warned, as survivors voiced growing fury over building firms’ “arrogant” refusal to admit wrongdoing ..."

Justice for Grenfell deaths may not come this decade, warns former chief prosecutor

 

[teqniq]

At the risk of stating what at least to me seems obvious, there will be attempts to kick all this into the long grass. Indeed they have already begun. As with Hillsborough it was ever thus.

 

[taperoo2k]

At the risk of stating what at least to me seems obvious, there will be attempts to kick all this into the long grass. Indeed they have already begun. As with Hillsborough it was ever thus.

It's the way of the British state. Its always lessons will be learned, lessons are not learned. Mistakes repeated over and over again.
My worry is given the amount of dangerous cladding still remaining on buildings, it's only a matter of time before another fire takes place.
There will be no excuses to hide behind if that happens, the Grenfell Report is clear and concise on what needs to be done.

 

[scalyboy]

... or longer:



Justice for Grenfell deaths may not come this decade, warns former chief prosecutor

Put the CEOs of Arconic, Celotex, Kingspan, the then head of RBK&C etc on remand in Brixton then!
Only 6 months I know, but still worth it to send the message ...

 

[Lurdan]

Grenfell Tower design firm blocked from closing down - Times (archived)

The architecture firm behind the Grenfell refurbishment project, which led to the tower being wrapped in flammable cladding, has been prevented from being wound down because of the disaster. Studio E has been in liquidation for more than four years but cannot be fully closed while investigations continue into the fire in June 2017 in which 72 people died, The Times has learnt.

Official Crown Prosecution Service guidance on corporate manslaughter states that where a company is in liquidation there is no bar to commencing a prosecution and the company can be prevented from being dissolved. Once it is dissolved and its name removed from Companies House, a process that can often take under a year, it no longer exists and cannot be prosecuted, the guidance says. It is not known if this is why Studio E’s liquidation could not be completed. Studio E’s liquidator declined to comment.

 

[klang]

Blair has this weird kink with innocent people dying due to tough decision taking. He always chimes in when avoidable death and suffering is either sanctioned or needs apologising.
He's a danger to society and should be treated as such.