Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

[frogwoman]

I'm on my way to Oxford and I just saw it looking out my window in the bus.

 

[squirrelp]

That's the point, it doesn't. Melting is not the same as burning by the way.

yes, thank you. I would better quote that rockwool is 'non-combustible' from the same page.

 

[DotCommunist]

This looks like deception and deliberate criminality on behalf of the contractors involved.

not that they'll ever be able to prove it (unless some people have been sloppy with their own futures rather than other peoples)

but council collusion in this, I think. The whys and hows of how the firm doing the work got the contract. Local government is rotten as fuck.

 

[yardbird]

Whirlpool, who owns Hotpoint, has urged anyone who thinks they may own one of the appliances of the model FF175BP or FF175BG to call 0800 316 3826.

It said: "We offer our most profound condolences to the victims, those who have lost loved ones, homes, and possessions, and to their friends and families."

I suggested this on FB several days ago.
Liability ?

 

[Wilf]

Plod apparently talking about manslaughter charges, though when you get past the headline it's clear thatnothing of the sort is actually happening:
Grenfell Tower fire: police consider manslaughter charges
Sounds to me like a bit of politically inspired rhetoric from the police. They are nowhere near the point of any kind of charges and the usual response would be along the lines of 'we are at an early stage ... too early to speculate' etc.

 

[Pickman's model]

Plod apparently talking about manslaughter charges, though when you get past the headline it's clear thatnothing of the sort is actually happening:
Grenfell Tower fire: police consider manslaughter charges
Sounds to me like a bit of politically inspired rhetoric from the police. They are nowhere near the point of any kind of charges and the usual response would be along the lines of 'we are at an early stage ... too early to speculate' etc.

yeh we're supposed to be speculating, they're supposed to have information

 

[belboid]

Plod apparently talking about manslaughter charges, though when you get past the headline it's clear thatnothing of the sort is actually happening:
Grenfell Tower fire: police consider manslaughter charges
Sounds to me like a bit of politically inspired rhetoric from the police. They are nowhere near the point of any kind of charges and the usual response would be along the lines of 'we are at an early stage ... too early to speculate' etc.

But they are investigating potential manslaughter. They need to have an idea what particular crime they are investigating, even if they might later change their mind.

 

[Teaboy]

not that they'll ever be able to prove it (unless some people have been sloppy with their own futures rather than other peoples)

but council collusion in this, I think. The whys and hows of how the firm doing the work got the contract. Local government is rotten as fuck.

Yes, you're almost certainly right. Corruption is utterly rife in local authority and it'd be a surprise if someone from the council was getting something from it.

Thing is even if there wasn't anything dodgy going on they still signed up to a contract with a bid that was massively lower than the original bidder. Not just a couple of hundred grand but knocking on 35% lower. If no one bothered to properly investigate the reasons behind such a low bid that is at best dereliction of duty.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Well, as the tweet you posted suggests this is no longer just about loose regulation and a lack of oversight. This looks like deception and deliberate criminality on behalf of the contractors involved. The whole industry is going to be tarnished by these dangerous greedy fools.

The owners of Harley Facades Ltd, the sub-contractors that fitted the cladding, used to own Harley Curtain Wall Ltd, which went bust late in 2015 with debts of over £1m after having put almost £2.5m in tax avoidance schemes according to HMRC, then various assets were sold to Harley Facades Ltd.

Grenfell cladding bosses 'put £2.5m into tax avoidance' | Daily Mail Online

 

[teuchter]

yes, thank you. I would better quote that rockwool is 'non-combustible' from the same page.

My point was that, *if* the cladding was burning at a very high temperature, we wouldn't necessarily know how well rockwool would survive. It doesn't melt until 1000C but some of the resins that bind it together apparently fail at a lower temperature.

The question of whether it would remain intact (rather than whether it would burn) is relevant because if it were to disintegrate, it could enhance the chimney effect behind the cladding.

 

[Pickman's model]

My point was that, *if* the cladding was burning at a very high temperature, we wouldn't necessarily know how well rockwool would survive.

a) the cladding burning at a very high temperature has no bearing on b) our knowledge of how rockwool would survive. that knowledge is separate from and independent of cladding burning at any temperature.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Whirlpool, who owns Hotpoint, has urged anyone who thinks they may own one of the appliances of the model FF175BP or FF175BG to call 0800 316 3826.

It said: "We offer our most profound condolences to the victims, those who have lost loved ones, homes, and possessions, and to their friends and families."

I suggested this on FB several days ago.
Liability ?

The only possible liability on Whirlpool would be around the initial fire & damage in that one flat, as the firefighters had put that out within minutes of arriving. There would be no liability in what happened after that, being that Whirlpool had no part in the cladding & insulation issues.

 

[cupid_stunt]

Plod apparently talking about manslaughter charges, though when you get past the headline it's clear thatnothing of the sort is actually happening:
Grenfell Tower fire: police consider manslaughter charges
Sounds to me like a bit of politically inspired rhetoric from the police. They are nowhere near the point of any kind of charges and the usual response would be along the lines of 'we are at an early stage ... too early to speculate' etc.

From that link:

Crown Prosecution Service figures last year showed that 19 companies had been charged with corporate manslaughter since the law was introduced in 2007.

There were 15 guilty verdicts, with fines ranging from £50,000 to £700,000, three acquittals and one case yet to come to trial. New sentencing guidelines introduced last year were expected to lead to higher fines for larger companies convicted of the most serious regulatory breaches. But charges have traditionally been easier to prove against smaller companies because of the need to identify a “controlling mind”.

That implies corporate manslaughter only results in fines?

Can directors & other responsible people not be charged & face jail?

ETA: Just found another link confirming directors can be jailed, giving examples of between 8 months and 3 years & 2 months - nowhere near long enough IMO.

CQMS H&S: Corporate Manslaughter Prosecutions

 

[Wilf]

But they are investigating potential manslaughter. They need to have an idea what particular crime they are investigating, even if they might later change their mind.

Yeah, I get that, I just get a sense that there's an element of political manipulation there, to convince the public that the government will push it all the way. In fact the likelihood is that the government want to put it all on the council, contractors and subcontractors - rightly in the sense that there seem to have been massive failings of regulation/testing there - whilst defending barwell and the failure to learn from recent tower block fires, at home and abroad (their responsibility).

 

[squirrelp]

From that link:

That implies corporate manslaughter only results in fines?

Can directors & other responsible people not be charged & face jail?

ETA: Just found another link confirming directors can be jailed, giving examples of between 8 months and 3 years & 2 months - nowhere near long enough IMO.

CQMS H&S: Corporate Manslaughter Prosecutions

The system generally protects corporations.

I would hope that the corporate veil could be pierced and those involved face straight manslaughter charges, not corporate. That's probably a hope too far.

This also doesn't affect civil litigation.

I wish we could do away with limited liability.

 

[teqniq]

There's always one complete arsehole, though I suspect in this instance there'll be more than one.

"If Grenfell Residents Move Into My Flats, I'll Move Out" - LBC

 

[Teaboy]

There's always one complete arsehole, though I suspect in this instance there'll be more than one.

"If Grenfell Residents Move Into My Flats, I'll Move Out" - LBC

Excellent. One more flat available for those who have lost everything.

 

[teqniq]

* whistles 'Always look on the bright side of life' *

 

[butchersapron]

Hopefully the ghastly new intake will drive the price down for her.

 

[agricola]

Excellent. One more flat available for those who have lost everything.

... and think of the extra work given to those who craft, tune and play incredibly small string instruments.

 

[Dandred]

With all this talk of so many similar clad buildings going on, isn't it just inviting some religious nutters to go around setting fire to them in the dead of night? Either these religious nutters have no idea, or the government is incompetent by allowing this information to go public so soon. Probably both, as they are as fuck witted as each other.

 

[little_legs]

Warren Street station is on fire, massive evacuation and panic

 

[Pickman's model]

Warren Street station is on fire, massive evacuation and panic

source pls

 

[little_legs]

I just ran out of there

 

[ElizabethofYork]

What happened?

 

[Pickman's model]

I just ran out of there

on fire i.e. smoke and flames or fire alarm? did you actually see evidence of fire?

 

[little_legs]

Just smoke coming out of northbound Victoria line platform and rancid smell

 

[Pickman's model]

Just smoke coming out of northbound Victoria line platform and rancid smell

rancid smell usual for the tube, smoke less so.

 

[little_legs]

Something was definitely burning the smoke cloud was too big for it to be minor

 

[Treacle Toes]

Just smoke coming out of northbound Victoria line platform and rancid smell

TfL Travel Alerts‏Verified account @TfLTravelAlerts 2m2 minutes ago
Warren Street: The station is closed to the @Victorialine and trains are non-stopping.

Becky‏ @BeckyGJ 6m6 minutes ago
Just got evacuated from Warren Street tube station because of "an emergency". Terrifying tbh. Sirens everywhere. No idea what's going on.