Grenfell Tower fire in North Kensington - news and discussion

[bimble]

Grenfell fire: 600 other tower blocks might have similar 'combustible' cladding, says Downing Street

May:
"All social landlords have been instructed to carry out additional fire safety checks on tower blocks and ensure the appropriate safety and response measures are in place."
She added: "We've also taken steps to make private landlords aware and make our checking facilities available to them for free."

so if its a private landlord they're under no obligation to do anything at all?

 

[Sue]

From a housing point of view , the shit has hit the fan #cladding

Can I ask a general question? I've lived in two tower blocks -- one in Hackney until about three years ago, the other in Lambeth in the late 90s -- and in neither of them were there instructions about what to do in a fire.

Signs up saying that the lifts wouldn't work but nothing else at all. Is this normal?

I was quite surprised that the Grenfell Tower residents knew they were meant to stay in their flats -- I'd certainly never heard anything about what you were meant to do.

 

[Casual Observer]

Can I ask a general question? I've lived in two tower blocks -- one in Hackney until about three years ago, the other in Lambeth in the late 90s -- and in neither of them were there instructions about what to do in a fire.

Signs up saying that the lifts wouldn't work but nothing else at all. Is this normal?

I was quite surprised that the Grenfell Tower residents knew they were meant to stay in their flats -- I'd certainly never heard anything about what you were meant to do.

I believe the fire safety notices were only put up within Grenfell Tower just a few months ago, probably as a token belated response to a) the 2015 fire at the nearby KCTMO 'managed' Adaire Tower and b) several years of campaigning by the Grenfell Action group following a previous fire in 2010 and the power surges of 2013.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Justice for Grenfell mural one of my friends has just helped finish:

 

[D'wards]

What a crying shame asbestos is so lethal to the lungs.

I wonder if asbestos has killed more people of lung disease than its saved by containing fires? Probably

 

[Sprocket.]

What a crying shame asbestos is so lethal to the lungs.

I wonder if asbestos has killed more people of lung disease than its saved by containing fires? Probably

Sadly I know three men I have worked with die of Mesothelioma (Asbestos cancer). Thankfully I know no-one who died in a fire. I suppose the industrial use of asbestos and it's decay is more likely for fatalities than domestic use though.

 

[Manter]

Did all their neighbours know they were OK? They were probably reported as known to have lived in the block and put on a list of potentially missing people, and given there were hundreds of people on that list from various sources it would be a big job to rule them out. They're probably working on such vague stuff as 'there was a Syrian family living on my mate's floor, don't know the flat number'. People will be on the list multiple times, sometimes by name, sometimes by description, and they'll be very cautious in eliminating potential missing people from the list. This sort of dot-joining stuff is also why it takes a long time to come out with expected casualty figures.

Exagerating a story like this also makes good clickbait, so don't expect such tales to perfectly match the facts, especially with the Independent.

They were reported missing by a volunteer English teacher who they don't know well. She wasn't due to see them so it's not like they missed a session so she raised the alarm- so it's a process problem. A completely amateur process problem.

 

[kabbes]

What a crying shame asbestos is so lethal to the lungs.

I wonder if asbestos has killed more people of lung disease than its saved by containing fires? Probably

This is actually a difficult question that has been debated a lot down the years. It has been suggested, for example, that the WTC would not have collapsed had it contained full asbestos fire breaks (no idea if that is true or not, but the debate is out there. Also, there was asbestos in the WTC, I believe, but not in the way there would have been had it been built ten years previously).

A lot of mesothelioma deaths, as well as lung cancers and debilitating but not necessarily lethal diseases such as asbestosis have come about less because of the use of asbestos per se and more due to the way it was applied, for example in aerosol spray form or within fibreboard that was then cut without proper protection. It's entirely possible that had it always been properly controlled and restricted to areas that the public would not come into contact with, it could always have been safely contained and would have prevented a number of disasters over the years.

 

[Cid]

This is actually a difficult question that has been debated a lot down the years. It has been suggested, for example, that the WTC would not have collapsed had it contained full asbestos fire breaks (no idea if that is true or not, but the debate is out there. Also, there was asbestos in the WTC, I believe, but not in the way there would have been had it been built ten years previously).

A lot of mesothelioma deaths, as well as lung cancers and debilitating but not necessarily lethal diseases such as asbestosis have come about less because of the use of asbestos per se and more due to the way it was applied, for example in aerosol spray form or within fibreboard that was then cut without proper protection. It's entirely possible that had it always been properly controlled and restricted to areas that the public would not come into contact with, it could always have been safely contained and would have prevented a number of disasters over the years.

The problem is people very rarely do things as they're regulated... I mean they might on install, but then x goes bust and y takes over, and chops and changes a few things without knowing. I mean here (Sheffield) pretty much every industrial building has an asbestos roof... Relatively safe asbestos, but they're all gradually falling apart. It's also sodding expensive to deal with. I think you'd need full top down supervision and funding of removal/modification.

 

[Cid]

I realise I'm thinking about that specifically in industrial terms, but I suppose the problem is it's hard to know what'll happen 30 years down the line. You might have dilapidated surface panels and a Tory government that won't fund safe removal...

 

[marty21]

Any developments other than having to visit and reassure residents?

Plenty , my authority has been very pro-active tbf

 

[marty21]

Can I ask a general question? I've lived in two tower blocks -- one in Hackney until about three years ago, the other in Lambeth in the late 90s -- and in neither of them were there instructions about what to do in a fire.

Signs up saying that the lifts wouldn't work but nothing else at all. Is this normal?

I was quite surprised that the Grenfell Tower residents knew they were meant to stay in their flats -- I'd certainly never heard anything about what you were meant to do.

Most councils have fire safety departments who are supposed to check the buildings regularly, In the event of a fire ,we get a report from the fire service and have to act on the recommendations. I don't manage any Tower blocks so It's not an area of expertise for me tbh.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Plenty , my authority has been very pro-active tbf

Are you able to say more/share more detail about what?

 

[marty21]

Are you able to say more/share more detail about what?

Not really it is the number 1 priority though.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Not really it is the number 1 priority though.

Fair enough, I was cautiously pushing my luck I know.

 

[squirrelp]

To me it doesn't seem safe to assume that the same system with Rockwool instead of celotex would be OK. If it's the case that it was primarily the cladding that fuelled the fire - and it appears that when it does burn, it burns really hot - then it's possible that the Rockwool would quickly fry away to nothing, enhancing any chimney effect and exposing window frames etc.

I don't think rockwool burns very easily

ROCKWOOL stone wool fibres can withstand more than 1000°C without melting

Product Benefits - ROCKWOOL Technical Insulation

 

[74drew]

Work colleague of mine has lost some family in the fire. Please sign and share.

Grenfell Tower Fire Victim Grieving | Campaigns by You

 

[Treacle Toes]

There was a community meeting today. Local residents asking key questions. Video of the livestream here:




Haven't had a chance to watch it yet but bookmarking here for those who are interested.

 

[equationgirl]

I don't think rockwool burns very easily


Product Benefits - ROCKWOOL Technical Insulation

That's the point, it doesn't. Melting is not the same as burning by the way.

 

[pesh]

i can't stop thinking about this. so upset and so angry.

 

[gentlegreen]

I just tried burning a bit of Celotex - I'm insulating my house with it - and it's impressively self-extinguishing - so presumably needs something else to fuel and sustain its combustion - such as a sandwich of thin aluminium with an inflammable foam core - plus a chimney.

 

[free spirit]

The basic design of this type of tower block relies on effective compartmentalisation and protection within each flat. Hence the single staircase and tragic advice to stay in flat unless advised otherwise. I don't think that width staircase will comply with means of escape required widths etc (rightly so after ibrox etc disasters) if all residents were to take to staircase at once.

Sprinkler systems installation (good for Croydon to propose) require all sorts of consideration re zoning and insurance for "what if your neighbour sets them off and ruins your stuff ". Yet somehow urgent solutions need to be found.

Have shares in rockwool gone up in the last week? I'm an architect (though I've never wished on tower blocks) and I feel collective guilt for the whole building industry except a few individuals like Sam Webb who have been pointing out these things for years.

unless your neighbour has set fire to your flat they'll not be able to set your sprinklers off as each sprinkler head should be individually heat activated.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Grenfell Tower Fire – The Forgotten Forgotten Victims

Today’s blog will be about the plight of a particular section of the Lancaster West community who have become the forgotten forgotten victims of the Grenfell Fire Atrocity. The graphic above (borrowed from Google Earth) shows Grenfell Tower shaded red on the left of the picture. It also shows an extensive complex of low rise blocks, two smaller blocks adjacent to Grenfell and three long blocks (‘the finger blocks’) radiating away from it. This blog will focus on the plight of the hundreds of households in these low rise blocks.

 

[teqniq]

 

[Teaboy]

It just gets worse and worse. I was watching Newsnight last night with my head in my hands. Its so much worse in every respect then I ever envisaged.

 

[Pickman's model]

It just gets worse and worse. I was watching Newsnight last night with my head in my hands. Its so much worse in every respect then I ever envisaged.

you ain't seen nothin yet, as al jolson pointed out

 

[teqniq]

It just gets worse and worse. I was watching Newsnight last night with my head in my hands. Its so much worse in every respect then I ever envisaged.

Can I have a precis please? No telly.

 

[Teaboy]

Can I have a precis please? No telly.

Well, as the tweet you posted suggests this is no longer just about loose regulation and a lack of oversight. This looks like deception and deliberate criminality on behalf of the contractors involved. The whole industry is going to be tarnished by these dangerous greedy fools.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Grenfell Tower: Fire started in Hotpoint fridge freezer, say police

• 7 minutes ago
  

Image copyrightPA
The Grenfell Tower fire in London started in a fridge freezer, and outside cladding failed safety tests, police say.

Insulation on the building also failed tests and the Metropolitan Police will consider manslaughter charges.

Seventy-nine people are missing or presumed dead after the blaze destroyed 150 homes in the Kensington tower block.

Police confirmed the fire had not been started deliberately.

Det Sup Fiona McCormack said she wanted to hear about anyone who was in the tower, whether or not they were meant to be in the building.

She said: "I do not want there to be any victims of this tragedy that we do not know about.

"Our priority is to understand who was in Grenfell Tower. We are not interested in people's reasons for being in Grenfell Tower."

Grenfell Tower: Fire started in Hotpoint fridge freezer, say police - BBC News

 

[teqniq]

Thanks, yeah just reading this in the Indy now

...“What we are being told at the moment by the Building Research Establishment is that the cladding and insulation failed all safety tests.”

She added: “Our investigation is to establish how the fire started.”

Police are looking at "every criminal offence from manslaughter onwards", as well as health and safety regulations and investigating all companies involved in the building and refurbishment of Grenfell Tower....