God and religion
- Thread starter frogwoman
- Start date
BandWagon
Life's a bitch and then you die...
I think it's a lot wider than that. It's a way of controlling the crowd.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
Well you are right in that both are looking to persuade potential followers.
Perhaps I should be more pushy, but I tend to be tolerant, even of intolerant people!
grit
an ugly force for good
Indeed.
"Here's how it happened: About five thousand years ago, a bunch of religious and political hustlers got together to figure out how they could control people and keep them in line. They knew people were basically stupid and would believe anything they were told,so these guys announced that God— God personally—had given one of them a list of Ten Commandments that he wanted everyone to follow. They claimed the whole thing took place on a mountaintop, when no one else was around."
Humberto
Callooh! Callay!
Its not though. The idea of a creator is not provable. But its quite possible.
grit
an ugly force for good
I think he is talking about the concept of burden of proof. As in if you are making a claim, the burden of proof is on you, rather than your detractors to prove you wrong.
BandWagon
Life's a bitch and then you die...
That is really funny. There was a CK thing about the catholic church, I'll have to see if I can find it.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
There's no data to say such a thing is possible or not, just heaps of it pointing in the 'vanishingly unlikely' direction.
But nevertheless, there are an infinite number of potential concepts of 'creator' that have nothing to do with a nonfalsifiable comfort blanket that is always watching you wanking.
Humberto
Callooh! Callay!
What is vanishingly unlikely about it? (that is the possibility of a creator of some sort)
8ball
Decolonise colons!
I mean there is no data about possibility or otherwise. By most definitions of God the idea is meaningless.
By creator 'of some sort', do you have something in mind other than the one I briefly mentioned above?
For instance, we could posit the idea of a creator that creates a universe that looks to its inhabitants exactly like a creatorless universe.
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Humberto
Callooh! Callay!
This is true I think. But you went on to say there was 'heaps of it' (evidence I took you to mean) pointing in the no possibility of a creator direction.
Some conscious deliberate action which started the universe by some thing which I'll not speculate on.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
No, I meant there is heaps of evidence pointing in the direction of it being highly unlikely the wanking-obsessed comfort-blanket version of a creator exists.
Your definition of a creator is sufficiently hollowed-out to be of no consequence or interest, which is why there are no religions based on such a thing.
Humberto
Callooh! Callay!
OK. That isn't what you said but we'll move on if you like.
How is there being a conscious deliberate creator of the universe 'of no interest'? I think its of huge interest personally.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
As an atheist I would like that more people shared my view, many soft Christians are content that I have this view and are not interested in converting me, and the ones that want to convert me are only a minor irritation easily swatted away.
Then there are the fundamentalists of the various religions and they are more of an issue not personally for me but for peace around the world. To people like Dawkins they are perhaps the priority, but there is no way easily to convince them the flaws in their beliefs.
So what is a British atheist to do? Do I just mosey along content in my beliefs or do I make effort to try to convince believers the error of their ways?
In my current situation, the crocodile nearest the canoe is rather more mundane things like keeping a roof over my head so I can't see myself investing any time or effort on persuading believers that their views are bunkum.
Then there are the fundamentalists of the various religions and they are more of an issue not personally for me but for peace around the world. To people like Dawkins they are perhaps the priority, but there is no way easily to convince them the flaws in their beliefs.
So what is a British atheist to do? Do I just mosey along content in my beliefs or do I make effort to try to convince believers the error of their ways?
In my current situation, the crocodile nearest the canoe is rather more mundane things like keeping a roof over my head so I can't see myself investing any time or effort on persuading believers that their views are bunkum.
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Chick Webb
Countryfile and a can
I personally find this "I get/got lots of comfort from" argument very strange. It's like the religious person acknowledges that their belief is subjective, but the fact that it gives them some mental balm is some sort of trump card for being religious. It's very well documented that religion provides comfort to people who believe and I don't dispute that, but why do religious people keep using it as an argument to me? It's like they want me to pretend. I can't.
Froggy, to be honest, I was shocked when I first read on here that you believed in god. But I learned one interesting thing from reading your posts on the subject, and that was that religious belief doesn't require absolute certainty - there's an element of hope in it, and to use the cliched term, faith. That concept made me see religious people in a more nuanced way. You are still the same person, whether there is a god there or not. There isn't by the way! (I'm only messing, your relationship with god can survive this crisis, or alternatively you can survive the transition to no god - don't feel bereft).
Froggy, to be honest, I was shocked when I first read on here that you believed in god. But I learned one interesting thing from reading your posts on the subject, and that was that religious belief doesn't require absolute certainty - there's an element of hope in it, and to use the cliched term, faith. That concept made me see religious people in a more nuanced way. You are still the same person, whether there is a god there or not. There isn't by the way! (I'm only messing, your relationship with god can survive this crisis, or alternatively you can survive the transition to no god - don't feel bereft).
Chick Webb
Countryfile and a can
Are you going to feel cut adrift if you abandon religion? The way you're talking sounds to me like you still believe in god but you're in a bit of a strop with him.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Tbh, i dunno, maybe. I feel fairly relaxed. Im not massively involved atm bar going to the odd thing, thats the thing this time i feel a lot more relaxed about it than the last time i stopped believing. Maybe because ive had all sorts of real life stress ive handled myself without relying on religion. I also feel a lot better about solely doing a lot of these things as theyre part of my culture. Dunno, tho. Its hard for me to admit i dont believe it at all, bit hard to answer that.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
well it is if you make a thing of it and stridently decry other peoples faiths. Just don't believe in god. I don't either. But to make a fetish of your moral superiority for not believing and call several billion people mugs? Have a word with yourself.
grit
an ugly force for good
This is what I was trying to convey regarding my comments on Dawkins.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
I find it hilarious that you use a cherokee parable to illustrate your point. Heres an old zen buddhist one:
a man seeking wisdom came to the wise man of the mountain. The wise man told him- go and sit below the dung chute of the nearest palace for three days.
The man did as the wise elder had told him then came back to ask 'elder, what have I learned?'
'you've got shit on your head'
Johnny Vodka
The Abominable Scotsman
My ideal would be to move to a world where religion is declawed, where other rights are put before any controversial aspect - circumcision, abortion, treatment of animals... Interesting to see Islam attracts the most criticism, but in Latin America we still have this bullshit. http://www.channel4.com/news/latin-americas-abortion-shame
Interesting that religion is a protected characteristic, when so many actually need protected from religion.
Obv not feeling the Sunday religious vibes.
Interesting that religion is a protected characteristic, when so many actually need protected from religion.
Obv not feeling the Sunday religious vibes.
This is widely believed but there is no real evidence to support it, in the case of biblical proscriptions at least. Pork was no more 'dangerous' than other meats.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Ah, I see where that slightly ambiguous comma may have been confusing...
No value or interest unless you give some more content to the concept.
As it is, it seems likely that such a 'creator' will never be of any relevance to any human lives since humans will have been and gone well before it gets to gathering the data from its little simulation, and in any case there would be a myriad of potential purposes for its experiment that have no bearing on whether some some clusters have some galaxies with some stars with some congealed dust around them that go a bit mouldy after a few zillion processor cycles.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
I am fairly open minded on it tbf and my views will prob change one way or another in a few months
What is it that tends to push you back in the other direction - stressful events or other stuff?
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
It's funny, the older I get I generally find I'm more tolerant of most views, but religion is going the other way. If someone tells me they believe in a god of some sort I can't help but be disappointed.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
beesonthewhatnow
going deaf for a living
I'm friends with several Tories. It makes for good debate if nothing else. But I can't think of anyone in my social circle who is a believer.Even compared to telling you they're a Tory?
8ball
Decolonise colons!
Maybe they just shut up about it when you are around.
I have several friends who used to be believers - it made for some good debate for a long time but they conceded defeat in the end.
