God and religion

[littlebabyjesus]

you want me to name young earth creationists cited in credible journals? lol.

Seemed a reasonable question to me. Are you speaking of biologists pre-Darwin, pre-modern geology? The idea that the Earth is billions of years old is itself pretty recent - post-Darwin in the conclusive evidence being found.

Biologists today who are young earth creationists and adepts in their fields? I'd be interested if you could name one. I can't.

 

[weltweit]

Personally I am a Dawkins fan. I follow him on twitter and he is relentless in his criticism of people of religion, I like that even if I myself can't keep it up at such a level. I tend to co-exist with believers at least CofE ones rather than taking them on. Perhaps I should become more militant but it is not really in my nature.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Depends what is meant by "religion" but for starters there's the Holy Quran, http://quran.com/4/82

Hence the impossibility of conversation between believers and non-believers, I guess.

'It came from God.' vs 'No it didn't.'

 

[DotCommunist]

You'll be waiting a long time, I don't take adept to mean expert and widely praised n published.

Hence the impossibility of conversation between believers and non-believers, I guess.

not true, Its perfectly possible to hold a belief in god and also accept the age of the earth and evolution for example. Take it that 'imperfect vessels' took in the word of the Almighty but in an era when maths was still a bit voodoo (I'm convinced it still is ya bastards) such flawed human recipients of His words could not even concieve of geological time frames. Least, thats how I always looked at it.

 

[DotCommunist]

cf: numerology

 

[littlebabyjesus]

You'll be waiting a long time, I don't take adept to mean expert and widely praised n published.

I'm confused as to what you mean in that case.

not true, Its perfectly possible to hold a belief in god and also accept the age of the earth and evolution for example. Take it that 'imperfect vessels' took in the word of the Almighty but in an era when maths was still a bit voodoo (I'm convinced it still is ya bastards) such flawed human recipients of His words could not even concieve of geological time frames. Least, thats how I always looked at it.

That was part of a different discussion, though, no? My point there was that, taking the Huxley line of 'don't believe anything without good reason to believe it', where you see no good reason whatever to believe that the words in a book are divinely inspired, there's little that can be said between you and someone who, as far as you're concerned, believes it despite the absence of a reason to believe it.

You're right that there are religious scientists, scientists who don't take unscientific positions wrt things like the age of the earth or evolution, but that wasn't really my point. My point was that the position of faith, wherever it may be pinpointed, such as at the belief that some person was a prophet, is the place at which communication breaks down.

 

[DotCommunist]

I'm confused as to what you mean in that case.



That was part of a different discussion, though, no? My point there was that, taking the Huxley line of 'don't believe anything without good reason to believe it', where you see no good reason whatever to believe that the words in a book are divinely inspired, there's little that can be said between you and someone who, as far as you're concerned, believes it despite the absence of a reason to believe it.

You're right that there are religious scientists, scientists who don't take unscientific positions wrt things like the age of the earth or evolution, but that wasn't really my point. My point was that the position of faith, wherever it may be pinpointed, such as at the belief that some person was a prophet, is the place at which communication breaks down.

'skilled' doesn't mean you are recognized. As poets know only too well *violin*

 

[frogwoman]

Youd be surprised, iknow a (non religous) scientist who thinks global warmimgs not real

 

[DotCommunist]

is the place at which communication breaks down.

yes. I've had the debates with christians. At some point they'll just go 'well, I believe it to be so because my god is in charge of this world'

and no, there is no argument with that on a philo level. On observable science level then maybe. Some of em will still just lalala god at you tho

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Youd be surprised, iknow a (non religous) scientist who thinks global warmimgs not real

Everyone has the capacity for blind spots on certain things. Fred Hoyle was a great scientist in many respects (discovered the mechanism by which stars make the elements - very clever), but he ended up believing some real crap by the end of his life.

Young-earth creationist biologists, though? Given the centrality of evolution to our understanding of biology, such a figure would be massively handicapped in their work.

 

[Humberto]

Kind of cuts both ways. A lot of the time atheists will just say 'yeah well only stupid believe in religion because they've got no proof God exists'. And then just repeat that in not very different forms.

 

[8ball]

Youd be surprised, iknow a (non religous) scientist who thinks global warmimgs not real

That there is no warming, or that there is no confirmed anthropogenic effect?

 

[frogwoman]

That there is no warming, or that there is no confirmed anthropogenic effect?

That 'the climate is always changing and 100 years ago it was worse' and that the whole thing is a con

 

[BandWagon]

I think that a lot of people who are brought up in a particular religion, and belong to a church and a community, really don't care a jot about evolution or the age of the Earth. They just care about how they feel and how they fit into their community. If it makes them happy, then I have no issue with that. The problem comes when it spills over into the public domain and they persecute women and gay people, and kill apostates. Religion should be like sex, done in private between consenting adults.

 

[8ball]

That 'the climate is always changing and 100 years ago it was worse' and that the whole thing is a con

What is their field?

 

[bluescreen]

Youd be surIsprised, iknow a (non religous) scientist who thinks global warmimgs not real

Is s/he a climate scientist?

 

[frogwoman]

Is s/he a climate scientist?

No.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Religion should be like sex, done in private between consenting adults.

Ironically enough, sex is normally a subject on which religions have much to say.

There is a bit of a dilemma here: to what extent should intolerance be tolerated? I don't have a great answer to that.

 

[likesfish]

to be a real bastard religion or a similar political faith nazism,communism. Maoism etc really allows people to go screw morality lets go off the fucking deep end

 

[BandWagon]

Ironically enough, sex is normally a subject on which religions have much to say.

There is a bit of a dilemma here: to what extent should intolerance be tolerated? I don't have a great answer to that.

Religions have much to say about everything, from beards to circumcision to turbans to pigs and cows....

The discussion about intolerance is interesting. Maybe you start by granting everyone equal rights, and don't tolerate any deviation?

 

[frogwoman]

to be a real bastard religion or a similar political faith nazism,communism. Maoism etc really allows people to go screw morality lets go off the fucking deep end

So does capitalism.

 

[BandWagon]

to be a real bastard religion or a similar political faith nazism,communism. Maoism etc really allows people to go screw morality lets go off the fucking deep end

But isn't this thread really about religion?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Religions have much to say about everything, from beards to circumcision to turbans to pigs and cows....

They often have a great deal to say about sex because of their role in regulating family life - their role in controlling sexual behaviour. Possibly many organised religions' primary social role.

 

[frogwoman]

I think theres a good argument for calling trotskyism a religion tbh , its a religious rather than realistic analysis of the world but yep i was talking about the 'conventional' ones.

 

[frogwoman]

Kind of cuts both ways. A lot of the time atheists will just say 'yeah well only stupid believe in religion because they've got no proof God exists'. And then just repeat that in not very different forms.

Indeed.

Theres no real proof god doesnt exist either

 

[BandWagon]

They often have a great deal to say about sex because of their role in regulating family life - their role in controlling sexual behaviour. Possibly many organised religions' primary social role.

But they control all behaviour, surely? Like what people wear, whether they shave, how often they pray, what they eat (halal, kosher), the role of women? It's crowd control.

 

[grit]

Personally I am a Dawkins fan. I follow him on twitter and he is relentless in his criticism of people of religion, I like that even if I myself can't keep it up at such a level. I tend to co-exist with believers at least CofE ones rather than taking them on. Perhaps I should become more militant but it is not really in my nature.

I think he can be as bad as the religious fundamentalists at times tbh.

 

[BandWagon]

Indeed.

Theres no real proof god doesnt exist either

OK, suppose I say that there is a green teapot in orbit around Saturn. You can't disprove it, and nor should you. If I say that, it's up to me to prove it. So it's up to those who believe in some god or another to prove it, not up to the rest of us to disprove it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

But they control all behaviour, surely? Like what people wear, whether they shave, how often they pray, what they eat (halal, kosher), the role of women? It's crowd control.

Lots of that stuff is at root about controlling sexual behaviour and limiting the expression of sexuality.

The various religious eating codes are a bit of a separate thing - with their origins in something pretty sensible, providing a guide to what was dangerous to eat at the time the religions were forming.

 

[8ball]

I think he can be as bad as the religious fundamentalists at times tbh.

Yeah, what with his track record of genital mutilation and beheadings...