frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Who hasnt been?
God and religion
- Thread starter frogwoman
- Start date
Who hasnt been?
grit
an ugly force for good
Sure but it seems superfluous and avoidable as opposed to something like capitalism.
Gromit
International Man of Misery
In theory the ten commandments. The claim is that the hand of God himself carved the words onto the slabs.
However you'd need to find the arc of the covernant and have the slabs analysed to prove they weren't cut by chisel.
xes
F.O.A.D
I'm another who is going to say that you don't need religion to have faith in something, or a belief of any kind which brings you comfort. Take what you've learnt from your religion, and other religions, and remove all of the crap that you don't like. Keep what you do. There is no reason for it to be more complex in the grand scheme of things. This is YOUR journey, and you are going to learn and experience many things and you'll react to them totally different to anyone else based on your life experience. That is going to have an effect on how you view the world/universe and everything, and it will have an effect what you think about it and as our experience grows, our views change and grow. Maybe you'll feel the need to experience other systems, or maybe one already exists within the faith system you already have. (I'm sure there are many different sectors in Judaism which may have something more suited to how you're feeling, tbh not something I'd know)
In my very honest opinion, beliefs are fluid, and that's how it should be. Constantly changing and forming how you see and experience the world. And questioning what you believe and think you believe is a great thing, it means that you are intelligent enough to know to that you don't have all of the answers and are willing to look outside what you already know to look for them. That takes balls, no word of a lie. You don't have to lose your faith, just adapt it to how you think it should be. There doesn't have to be a building you go to to express this, if one doesn't exist. It's you who can sit in quiet comfort somewhere and read, or pray/meditate. You need no special public space to do that. You can sit in an open field and connect just as you would in a place of worship, or in a room in your home. If a grand creator made this universe, then appreciating the beauty of that creation whinin it, and paying your respects that way can't be a bad thing. (and as experience has taught me, it's a very nice thing to do) I once read somewhere and a few other places.., that all of the answers you seek are in the silence of prayer/meditation. Sit in silence, and ask the questions you need answered.
I'm starting to waffle now (hic), so I'll just doff my cap and wish you all the best in finding what you're looking for. I like you, you're a proper sorted nice person. So I hope you find it soon.
In my very honest opinion, beliefs are fluid, and that's how it should be. Constantly changing and forming how you see and experience the world. And questioning what you believe and think you believe is a great thing, it means that you are intelligent enough to know to that you don't have all of the answers and are willing to look outside what you already know to look for them. That takes balls, no word of a lie. You don't have to lose your faith, just adapt it to how you think it should be. There doesn't have to be a building you go to to express this, if one doesn't exist. It's you who can sit in quiet comfort somewhere and read, or pray/meditate. You need no special public space to do that. You can sit in an open field and connect just as you would in a place of worship, or in a room in your home. If a grand creator made this universe, then appreciating the beauty of that creation whinin it, and paying your respects that way can't be a bad thing. (and as experience has taught me, it's a very nice thing to do) I once read somewhere and a few other places.., that all of the answers you seek are in the silence of prayer/meditation. Sit in silence, and ask the questions you need answered.
I'm starting to waffle now (hic), so I'll just doff my cap and wish you all the best in finding what you're looking for. I like you, you're a proper sorted nice person. So I hope you find it soon.
8ball
Decolonise colons!
"It's indoor work with no heavy lifting", as someone wise once said.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
you're irish aren't you? how superflous and avoidable would you say the role of the church in the community really is?
grit
an ugly force for good
I'm an Irish person whose parents were part of setting up one of the country's first multi denominational schools, so I'm probably not the best person to use that tactic with
Point being if you don't want to engage with it you dont have to.
Last edited:
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
of course, but theres that old saw about 'you never truly escape the teachers of your youth'. Hence, me at carol services most every christmas singing about the baby jesus even though I stopped believing at 13. I'd also argue that 'you don't have to engage if you don't want to' is not true for many, many peoples of the world- and thats not right, faith by societal coercion is a subtle form of ecuminism by the sword. In any case my rejection is not based on empirical science of 'it cannot be proven'. Mines just 'fuck knows, but if s/he does exist they can go fuck themselves cos non serviam'
Humberto
Callooh! Callay!
I wouldn't put your faith away because others abuse theirs. Not to derail but I think Isis are more into it for the joy of rape and killing than any sort of semi-coherent faith. If faith in God sustains you and motivates you in a good way then it is still valuable to you and the rest of us.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
How about that time when atheist nazis were about to murder a captive in their camps , and a catholic priest stepped forward and told them to take him instead . The punishment wasn't shooting . It was to be locked in an underground bunker without food or water till you died . Maximilian Kolbe took the place of a complete stranger . In the end he didn't die quickly enough so they injected him with acid or something . So which was best there ? Atheism or Catholicism ?
People tend to do shit things . They look to religion or politics as framework to justify it . Blaming religion for IS is like blaming socialism for pol pot .
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Its not only because of that tho.
I do value the cultural aspects of it, the holidays, enjoy going to services etc, i dont eat pork or most meat, but its also the idea that i tried to believe in god but a lot of it no longer makes much sense, the idea of god also seems fairly unlikely too. but these rules are all cultural isnt it? Its 'ok' to practice the odd ritual just for old times sake and not actually believe isnt it?
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
I watched that film and it was a shit version of The Road. I was totally sold on the premise because- denzel! Gary Oldman! how can this fail? But it did. Gary Oldman in particular was clearly phoning it in and doing a shit impression of himself
/derail
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
The backgrounds of quite a few attracted to it often don't point to any great piety .
Athos
Well-Known Member
I accept that there are a number of isolated incidents of religion inspiring people to prevent awful acts, but they pale into insignificance, by many orders of magnitude, when compared to the extent of the awful acts that would not have happened but for religion. Without religion there would be no Isis.
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
I'm fine btw, I feel quite relaxed about the whole thing, not upset over it. Just a realisation i've come to. As far as im concerned tho,i eat as little meat as I can, observe some jewish fasts/holidays and occasionally go along to a meal or a service and thats fine by me tbh. Some people would think otherwise and ive never had much time for the dawkins brigade, but oh well.
weltweit
Well-Known Member
I never had faith, even though my parents were church of England, and as a child I rang the bell in the church Sundays to call the worshippers.
You can be a perfectly compassionate, empathetic, generous, kind, loving and good person without believing in any creator or a good book and given that that also separates you from all that is nasty and cruel in the bible or other holy books I think it is to be recommended.
That said, it is impossible to ignore religion, because of all that you mentioned frogwoman in your OP, there are religious nutcases beheading people, stealing land, invading and killing, and they cannot be ignored, and when the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death then a few atheists are not easily going to persuade them that their beliefs are from the funny farm.
You can be a perfectly compassionate, empathetic, generous, kind, loving and good person without believing in any creator or a good book and given that that also separates you from all that is nasty and cruel in the bible or other holy books I think it is to be recommended.
That said, it is impossible to ignore religion, because of all that you mentioned frogwoman in your OP, there are religious nutcases beheading people, stealing land, invading and killing, and they cannot be ignored, and when the punishment for apostasy in Islam is death then a few atheists are not easily going to persuade them that their beliefs are from the funny farm.
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
Name them so we can check how often they're cited.
Or is this the list used on the creationist websites ?
chilango
Hypothetical Wanker
I hope so. That's what I do.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
you want me to name young earth creationists cited in credible journals? lol.
Fossil record in england discovered and categorized by CofE vicars. Erasemus Darwin was the thinker who Charles himself built upon. Basically your museli belief that religion has held science back is the most egregious bullshit and you really need to look beyond the athiesm you have made a religion of. I'm not a believer. Needs repeating lest some accuse me of loving the faith. So where does that leave those who have constructed their 'rationality' around the idea that all religion is inherently evil?
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition ...
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
gentlegreen
I hummus, therefore I am ...
Oh the old "atheism is just another religion" argument LOL
bluescreen
tofu eating wokerati
Humans often have a way of functioning that says 'Don't confuse me with facts or your different beliefs, my mind is made up.'
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
Well with some people it is.
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Which bits of faith were?
ViolentPanda
Hardly getting over it.
Says the person who gets petulant every time his Dawkinsianism is held up to him as a belief-system and he doesn't have the wit to disprove the claim.
No it wasn't. She clearly said that it can function like religion. LOL.
Without religion human beings would be a very different species if they were not extinct. So no ISIS. If you simply mean that if the members of ISIS weren't religious that they wouldn't be members brutally murdering people you'd again be right. Would there be another group or groups doing similar possibly with many of the same members? No one can know but I'd suggest that the motivations of ISIS members are not so simple as being down solely to religion. If every single one of them suddenly became the ubermensch among us, with their critical reasoning skills and the arrogance to call others stupid based on nothing more than their faith,a lot of them would stay where they were and keep up the fight. I'd go as far as to say that many who'd consider leaving would stay when they realised they'd be abandoning pals.
