🤥 Why are all religions based on deceit ?

[teuchter]

people aren't going to engage because all they can see is a slew of threads by you implying that you don't really care about any of them.

Sounds like you are new to urban75 too.

 

[WouldBe]

why not? genuinely curious I am not religious but do have beliefs, so why couldn't a religion be based on truth?

Taking 3.5 billion years to build the earth doesn't sound as all powerful as doing it in 6 days for starters.

 

[dessiato]

Come on now, this is not the plaice for flippant puns.

It's a cod thread.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

oh for fucks hake

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

why not? genuinely curious I am not religious but do have beliefs, so why couldn't a religion be based on truth?

Because religions are created by human beings with limited knowledge, experience and creativity, enormous ignorance of the physical world and the sheer scale of time and space. So they cannot possibly have the answers to all the big questions, nor have the answers to myriad little questions. If the originators of religions can't get it right then their successors, who codify and write down the rules, rituals and core beliefs, will only distort whatever inspiration initiated the religion. So not a chance, I'm afraid.

 

[dessiato]

oh for fucks hake

There doesn't seem to be a porpoise to it. We'll have a whale of a time punning.

 

[danny la rouge]

Because any system that attempts to relate humanity to phenomena/entities not subject to the natural laws/science tends to struggle in the objective truth department?

I suppose it depends on how one defines religion. Unfortunately that’s not something I’m interested in spending any effort doing. I did study the matter as a part of my first degree (my subsidiary was in sociology). But there is little consensus. (This is enough. You really don’t need to go any deeper: Definition of religion - Wikipedia ).

However, one definition could be “the teachings of a spiritual leader”. That wouldn’t actually require any supernatural element. I’d contend that spirituality doesn’t require a belief in the supernatural, and that in fact humans have a spiritual tendency, perhaps even a spiritual need.

To address the question “why are all religions based on deceit?”, one would first have to establish that they all are. Here, the focus would be on the word deceit. Deceit involves intention: behaviour that is deliberately intended to make people believe something which is not true. This is different from sincerely sharing something you believe to be true but which turns out not to be. So, you’d need to prove intention and awareness.

Quite why one would go to all that effort, I’ve no idea.

There’s much more useful things to spend your mental energy on.

 

[bcuster]

Most religions have a supreme being to worship
Sacred texts for instruction (written by humans of course)
And some sort of life after the life you left behind

I told a white lie one too many times & one day it became true & I was a believer !

I read the beginning of the Gospel of John & I had a vision of John the Baptist enforcing the word of god on to faith seekers

From what I have learned to be baptised in olden days you had to have been at least 8 years old & the traditional way was a controlled drowning technique, nowadays we call it waterboarding, but in the old christen doctrine it gave you a chance to be born again, and it left a memory engrained on ones mind ! this enforced the belief on young minds that after centuries christens began to christen their children as soon as they were born.

Alleluia

infants are baptized in Catholicism. Moist catholic adults report no memory of the event...

 

[brogdale]

I suppose it depends on how one defines religion. Unfortunately that’s not something I’m interested in spending any effort doing. I did study the matter as a part of my first degree (my subsidiary was in sociology). But there is little consensus. (This is enough. You really don’t need to go any deeper: Definition of religion - Wikipedia ).

However, one definition could be “the teachings of a spiritual leader”. That wouldn’t actually require any supernatural element. I’d contend that spirituality doesn’t require a belief in the supernatural, and that in fact humans have a spiritual tendency, perhaps even a spiritual need.

To address the question “why are all religions based on deceit?”, one would first have to establish that they all are. Here, the focus would be on the word deceit. Deceit involves intention: behaviour that is deliberately intended to make people believe something which is not true. This is different from sincerely sharing something you believe to be true but which turns out not to be. So, you’d need to prove intention and awareness.

Quite why one would go to all that effort, I’ve no idea.

There’s much more useful things to spend your mental energy on.

Well, yes; exactly. Truth itself is, of course, open to endless philosophical debate.
But in my Bishop's addled bank holiday state...woo is woo.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

There may not always be deliberate deception, but there very often is. Priests inventing documents, inventing relics, lnventing miracles. Other times there is self deception. Do you really think that Mohammed always sincerely, absolutely believed he was regularly visited by an archangel which nobody else ever saw? Ditto Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism? At some level these religious leaders knew what they were doing, knew they were bending the truth or creating a new truth, for the greater good naturally. Self deceit is really easy for most of us. Much easier than self knowledge, however you define that.

 

[petee]

What about a halibut?

it's good enough for jehovah!

btw, abrahamic religions aren't based on deceit so much as non-falsifiability. can you prove that mohammed didn't sit by himself in a cave and receive direct communication from gabriel? (see also miriam there at home that one night.)

 

[story]

why not? genuinely curious I am not religious but do have beliefs, so why couldn't a religion be based on truth?

I suppose they are if you consider that the common thread that runs through all of them is The Golden Rule, which strikes me as an essential true thing.

 

[story]

infants are baptized in Catholicism. Moist catholic adults report no memory of the event...

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

it's good enough for jehovah!

btw, abrahamic religions aren't based on deceit so much as non-falsifiability. can you prove that mohammed didn't sit by himself in a cave and receive direct communication from gabriel? (see also miriam there at home that one night.)

We all know that on one level you can't prove or disprove anything. Kids will sometimes go through the exercise of saying "prove it " to every and every subsequent statement. But that's kids. Grown ups should need something a bit more concrete or they are entitled to dismiss improbable ideas as impossible.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I suppose they are if you consider that the common thread that runs through all of them is The Golden Rule, which strikes me as an essential true thing.



View attachment 340277

Some variation of the supposed Golden Rule is common to all societies and belief systems, just to allow us humans to get along relatively well with each other. What religions and many other belief systems do is also define which people are excluded from the benefits of said rule, be it sinners, heretics, apostates, slaves, whatever.

 

[petee]

they are entitled to dismiss improbable ideas as impossible.

well no, they're not. the world is full of improbable things. I know well that I'm opening the door to the idea that you can make up anything and then demand that someone disprove it, having decided ahead of time to pull the rhetorical trick of parrying any counter-argument. but within the community of believers (I was raised very much inside one) non-falsifiability plays a fundamental role. it was described to me, a rational sort who is now a skeptic, as "giving interior assent". you know, "my feeeeelings make it true", a posture exploited by many apart from religious people.

 

[story]

Some variation of the supposed Golden Rule is common to all societies and belief systems, just to allow us humans to get along relatively well with each other. What religions and many other belief systems do is also define which people are excluded from the benefits of said rule, be it sinners, heretics, apostates, slaves, whatever.

Is it baked into consensus as statement of intent?

I know the rule of law is meant to govern it but I can’t think of a constitution that sets it out so simply.

I guess society also casts out the sinners etc by having laws.

 

[dessiato]

I suppose they are if you consider that the common thread that runs through all of them is The Golden Rule, which strikes me as an essential true thing.

"He who has the gold, rules." (sorry)

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

Why are all religions based on deceit ?

Because it divides the mind, body & soul

The body is observably mortal. If the soul is not divisible from the body the soul too must be mortal.

To have an afterlife requires division.

Also unless you can prove that mind body and soul are one how do you accuse others of decite?

This is the pot excommunicating the kettle.

 

[flypanam]

An invisible hand, worshippers of that particular doctrine are pure of faith and/or barking.

 

[Spymaster]

I suppose it depends on how one defines religion. Unfortunately that’s not something I’m interested in spending any effort doing. I did study the matter as a part of my first degree (my subsidiary was in sociology). But there is little consensus. (This is enough. You really don’t need to go any deeper: Definition of religion - Wikipedia ).

However, one definition could be “the teachings of a spiritual leader”. That wouldn’t actually require any supernatural element. I’d contend that spirituality doesn’t require a belief in the supernatural, and that in fact humans have a spiritual tendency, perhaps even a spiritual need.

To address the question “why are all religions based on deceit?”, one would first have to establish that they all are. Here, the focus would be on the word deceit. Deceit involves intention: behaviour that is deliberately intended to make people believe something which is not true. This is different from sincerely sharing something you believe to be true but which turns out not to be. So, you’d need to prove intention and awareness.

The only reasonable post on the thread really.

Ditto to "do you believe in god?", the only sensible response to which is to require a definition of god.

 

[Pickman's model]

All hierarchical relationships are founded on deceit so I see no reason why so many religions should be different, and you don't get relationships more hierarchical than those involving a super- or omnipotent being who holds your life in their hands

 

[brogdale]

The only reasonable post on the thread really.

Ditto to "do you believe in god?", the only sensible response to which is to require a definition of god.

Ah, a fellow ignostic.

 

[seventh bullet]

Because religions are created by human beings with limited knowledge, experience and creativity, enormous ignorance of the physical world and the sheer scale of time and space. So they cannot possibly have the answers to all the big questions, nor have the answers to myriad little questions. If the originators of religions can't get it right then their successors, who codify and write down the rules, rituals and core beliefs, will only distort whatever inspiration initiated the religion. So not a chance, I'm afraid.

I'm an atheist myself, but when it comes to knowledge, experience and creativity, those with religious faith have had it in spades, whether its the Islamic Golden Age's dialogue with a Greco-Roman heritage discarded by Byzantium and which helped to inform centuries of scientific, technological and medical innovation, or the seemingly more humbler but no less world-changing visionary activity of Gerrard Winstanley and the Diggers, doing a spot of communism on a Surrey hill.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

I'm an atheist myself, but when it comes to knowledge, experience and creativity, those with religious faith have had it in spades, whether its the Islamic Golden Age's dialogue with a Greco-Roman heritage discarded by Byzantium and which helped to inform centuries of scientific, technological and medical innovation, or the seemingly more humbler but no less world-changing visionary activity of Gerrard Winstanley and the Diggers, doing a spot of communism on a Surrey hill.

Yes, of course. People can be amazing in all kinds of ways, despite or because of their beliefs or faiths.

 

[seventh bullet]

Which goes against what you posted.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Which goes against what you posted.

Not in the slightest. The original post, the thread title, is about religion and deceit. I was talking about how religions are founded and created. You're talking about how adherents of those religions can achieve remarkable things, whether they derive inspiration from those religions or not. Not the same at all.

 

[NoXion]

We either base our confidence on reason (evident probabilities, past experience, competence, etc) or we base our beliefs on faith, which is blind by definition. Faith is the most dishonest position it is possible to have, because it is an assertion of stoic conviction that is assumed without reason and defended against all reason. If you have to believe something on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.

 

[Koknbul]

decite

the deceit lies in the lie

The Definition of Lying and Deception (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

 

[Pickman's model]

We either base our confidence on reason (evident probabilities, past experience, competence, etc) or we base our beliefs on faith, which is blind by definition. Faith is the most dishonest position it is possible to have, because it is an assertion of stoic conviction that is assumed without reason and defended against all reason. If you have to believe something on faith, you have no reason to believe it at all.

We all have faith in one central aspect of our lives, money. Money isn't inherently worth anything, without faith in its value it'd just be numbers on a screen, bits of paper or plastic and funny metal discs.