Gammon is not racist

[Treacle Toes]

Using indigenous as code for 'white' is extreme-right sophistry, based on conflating indigenous with aboriginal. And as everything coming from that source, it's shite.

No, no, no...just saying that makes you hysterical and other silly insults, apparently.

 

[Pickman's model]

If you think I'm reading 34 pages of disjointed bollocks... life is too short. (I'm 66 you know.)

don't know what you're doing on urban then

 

[JuanTwoThree]

Hysterical! Maoist idpol call out-thought police

 

[Treacle Toes]

Hysterical! Maoist idpol call out-thought police

You forgot American and obsessive.

 

[JuanTwoThree]

"Hysterical! Maoist idpol call-out" thought police

 

[Wilf]

There is fuck all socialist about using terminology like traditional, indigenous and working class as code for White. There's no solidarity in that. It's you placing value and the concerns of some people above others that can all describe themselves using those terms by erasing them altogether in your discourse. Saying that doesn't make me or anyone else AmericanIDpol obsessive though it does expose the very exclusive nature of your so called socialism and reveal piss poor attempts to hide your own IDpoliticking perspective.

So yeah...speaking of parody...pot, meet kettle.

Agree with you entirely about the word indigenous. Don't find it useful even at a descriptive level and has some biological echoes that are even less palatable. But with the rest of it - the rest of the issue, not your post - I think intention is key, where different people use the same terms for very different political purposes. Firstly, class should mean class, a category that describes a wide group of people who vary by age, gender, sexuality, ethnicity and the rest --but stand in a common relationship to capital and to other social classes. It's legitimate, proper and even necessary at times to note those differences, but actually raising part of that whole - 'white working class' - to the point where it becomes your dominant identity or politics is, well, racist.

Similarly when it comes to noting the impact of migration, I have no problem with terms like 'British working class' or 'existing working class', to distinguish the impact of change on different groups, the way that the working class is always diverse and always changes. Equally, there's no reason not to even get into difficult discussions about migration, globalisation and jobs for example (the bosses have no problem discussing it). But again, it's about political perspective, class loyalties and intentions. If your starting point is to suggest migrants and the 'existing working class' have fundamentally different interests, there's something deeply wrong with your politics. If your aim is carry on looking for solidarity and to continue the struggle, there isn't. [sorry Rutita1 that a bit random, not really a reply to you]

 

[danny la rouge]

It's legitimate, proper and even necessary at times to note those differences, but actually raising part of that whole - 'white working class' - to the point where it becomes your dominant identity or politics is, well, racist.

It’s worth pointing out that outlets like the Guardian, the BBC, and so on, all discuss “the white working class” as if it is obviously a discrete, homogenous entity. I don’t even mean to discuss people for whom that is an identity they assume, but as if it’s a common sense category. And that, too, is literally racist.

 

[Serge Forward]

No surprises those two mouthpieces for the liberal wing of the capitalist class routinely use the term "white working class". No doubt they'd claim to be using it "sociologically" rather than papers like the Sun and the far right using it in an obviously racist way. It's still bullshit though. Class is not an identity, a color, a gender, an accent or how dirty your hands get at work. it's the overarching capitalist social relationship we are all bound to. Working class, meaning those of us who do not own or control the means of production and who have to sell our labour power to an exploiting boss class is the only definition worth a toss.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It’s worth pointing out that outlets like the Guardian, the BBC, and so on, all discuss “the white working class” as if it is obviously a discrete, homogenous entity. I don’t even mean to discuss people for whom that is an identity they assume, but as if it’s a common sense category. And that, too, is literally racist.

Good article by Kenan Malik in, um, The Guardian about this.

In British education, the central issue is class, not ethnicity | Kenan Malik

 

[Sasaferrato]

Yeah fair enough, Britain is that kind of place. Indigenous means native so not settled from elsewhere, but if someone settles and their kids are born native then IMO the kids have the right to call themselves indigenous, because that's what they are.

Using indigenous as code for 'white' is extreme-right sophistry, based on conflating indigenous with aboriginal. And as everything coming from that source, it's shite.

Which is why I prefer simply 'British'.

 

[Sasaferrato]

Good article by Kenan Malik in, um, The Guardian about this.

In British education, the central issue is class, not ethnicity | Kenan Malik

More money spent on education would help. More teachers.

It goes against the grain, and I do see it as diminution of the nation, but we should scrap Trident, and spend the money on more useful things, like education and the NHS.

Scrap HS2 and use the money on high level technical schools.

 

[Celyn]

Why would getting rid of Trident diminish the nation?

 

[danny la rouge]

Why would getting rid of Trident diminish the nation?

And if that’s what it entails, why would we be opposed to “diminishing the nation”? I’m all for it.

 

[Wilf]

Anyway, I like a good ploughshare me.

 

[lucillemara]

symbolic castration, war toys are phalluses in imperialist psychosexuality

 

[Wilf]

symbolic castration, war toys are phalluses in imperialist psychosexuality

 

[lucillemara]

did you see trump bragging about his red button being bigger than kim's the subtext is text

 

[Sasaferrato]

Why would getting rid of Trident diminish the nation?

Our move out of the nuclear club, loss of the ability to project power etc. Looking at it rationally though, whether it is desirable or not; and that is certainly up for debate; we cannot afford it. We would never have fired first, and a retaliatory strike is a little pointless when your land glows in the dark.

 

[lucillemara]

wow a tory is talking more sense than anyone in the liberal media on this

 

[heebyjeeby]

We have no use for Trident. The ability of nuclear-armed subs to hide will soon be destroyed in any case.

 

[Santino]

How about 'salty' as a new term to describe the views of gammons and gammon-like people?

"I had no wish to spend another morning frowning over eggs and bacon while Guppy Dinsdale rehearsed his rather salty views on various political debates." - P.G. Wodehouse, What The Actual Fuck, Jeeves?

 

[Serge Forward]

and I do see it as diminution of the nation

Good. I'm all for diminishing the nation.

 

[Poi E]

Good. I'm all for diminishing the nation.

Which one?

 

[8ball]

Which one?

Switzerland

 

[Serge Forward]

Take your pick. Start with the nearest and go from there.

 

[Poi E]

They know how to engineer small things so they will outwit you!

 

[Sasaferrato]

wow a tory is talking more sense than anyone in the liberal media on this

I'm a pragmatist, always have been. When what the country wants is interfering with what the country needs, then the needs must come first.

Now is not the time to be scrimping on education. We are in for a very rocky ride post Brexit, our NHS etc are dependent on workers from abroad, and it takes time to train people.

Brexit - What a complete clusterfuck. Politicians quoting x% done and dusted, but not one single detail published, not one.

 

[Poi E]

Zombie state. Time for a war.

 

[Wilf]

How about 'salty' as a new term to describe the views of gammons and gammon-like people?

General gammons - salty
Middle class gammons - sea salt and balsamic vinegar

 

[maomao]

Salty already has an extended meaning when referring to people that some of us aspire to. Here I am trying to be interestingly coarse and all of a sudden I'm a gammon? Fuck that.