Gammon is not racist

[heebyjeeby]

this is good identity politics

bad identity politics is "diversify the bourgeoisie" (neoliberal approach) or "idpol alienates the working class" (bernie sanders/paul mason/shit left approach) which is white male workerist id pol used to shut down minorities who challenge the left's reproduction of racist patriarchal and capitalist dynamics in their own circles. both have fascist potentialities. to suggest that rejecting "they're coming for our women" propaganda is a gift to the right is surrender.

I disagree entirely. Alienating massively larger indigenous working class is what breeds fascism. The utterly hopeless policy of denial/coverup of liberal bourgeois government when faced with uncomfortable issues has enraged large portions of the traditional proletariat many of whom have turned to the far right given the paucity of support from other groupings.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I disagree entirely. Alienating massively larger indigenous working class is what breeds fascism. The utterly hopeless policy of denial/coverup of liberal bourgeois government when faced with uncomfortable issues has enraged large portions of the traditional proletariat many of whom have turned to the far right given the paucity of support from other groupings.

Indigenous
Proletariat
Traditional
Working class

I am sick to the back teeth of people using descriptions like this to mean 'White'. Why are you doing that?

If you mean White just say it. Wear your own IDPOLITICKING on your sleeve.

 

[heebyjeeby]

Indigenous
Proletariat
Traditional
Working class

I am sick to the back teeth of people using descriptions like this to mean 'White'. Why are you doing that?

If you mean White just say it. Wear your own IDPOLITICKING on your sleeve.

Because I am white and not part of this group. I do not have to sell my labour and do not experience, thanks to my unearned class privelage, the alienation they encounter. It would be absurd to suggest I share the issues that they do.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Because I am white and not part of this group.

None of those words mean White. You are using them as code for 'Whiteness' You don't own those descriptions because you are White.

 

[heebyjeeby]

None of those words mean White. You are using them as code for 'Whiteness' You don't own those descriptions because you are White.

I am using them to describe a specific group of white people ie those of the British Non Metropolitan,proletariat/lumpen proletariat. Not white people in general or, indeed, 'whiteness'.

 

[Treacle Toes]

I am using them to describe a specific group of white people ie those of the British Non Metropolitan,proletariat/lumpen proletariat. Not white people in general or, indeed, 'whiteness'.

So say White. Be clear and stop using terms that I can use to describe myself and others like me as code for White.

 

[Athos]

... bad identity politics is "diversify the bourgeoisie" (neoliberal approach) or "idpol alienates the working class" (bernie sanders/paul mason/shit left approach) which is white male workerist id pol used to shut down minorities who challenge the left's reproduction of racist patriarchal and capitalist dynamics in their own circles. both have fascist potentialities.

Don't you think it possible to critique the first species of 'bad identity politics' without either denying there's some value in Combahee River Collective's original conception, or falling into white male workerism?

 

[Serge Forward]

The working class is not white. In the UK it's made up of every ethnicity around, of whatever gender, any sexuality. And the thing we all have in common is we are exploited by the capitalist class. Anyone who talks in terms of 'indigenous' or 'white working class' is just another identity politico with their divide and rule bullshit.

 

[8ball]

Really wish Spy and ed would just bury that fucking hatchet. It’s got well old.

 

[lucillemara]

Don't you think it possible to critique the first species of 'bad identity politics' without either denying there's some value in Combahee River Collective's original conception, or falling into white male workerism?

yes but far too many leftists and liberals, including almost all of the famous ones, use the appearance of doing this to indulge and give cover to reaction

did identity politics cause Trump? depends how you define your terms but in libleft media (jacobin, novara, as well as nyt etc) it tends to mean uppity minorities upset the real americans and Hillary should have been even more racist than she already was to placate them

 

[Athos]

The working class is not white. In the UK it's made up of every ethnicity around, of whatever gender, any sexuality. And the thing we all have in common is we are exploited by the capitalist class. Anyone who talks in terms of 'indigenous' or 'white working class' is just another identity politico with their divide and rule bullshit.

Yes, it's divisive to frame things in terms of 'not alienting the white working class', as opposed to 'not undermining working solidarity along racial lines'. The former presumes white workers should be prioritised and their prejudices accommodated.

 

[lucillemara]

I disagree entirely. Alienating massively larger indigenous working class is what breeds fascism. The utterly hopeless policy of denial/coverup of liberal bourgeois government when faced with uncomfortable issues has enraged large portions of the traditional proletariat many of whom have turned to the far right given the paucity of support from other groupings.

the coverup, if you're implying what I think, is a coverup of police misogyny with a transparent lie that the credulous media bought because it spoke to classical proto-fascist anxieties and was allowed to fester and spread because of left-liberal cowardice and a total shutout of counterhegemonic views

and yeah, not only is "indigenous" in this context identity politics, it's actual blood and soil shit so it's no wonder you're worried about overuse of the f word

 

[Athos]

yes but far too many leftists and liberals, including almost all of the famous ones, use the appearance of doing this to indulge and give cover to reaction

did identity politics cause Trump? depends how you define your terms but in libleft media (jacobin, novara, as well as nyt etc) it tends to mean uppity minorities upset the real americans and Hillary should have been even more racist than she already was to placate them

I pretty much agree with this. But let's not throw out the baby with the bathwater.

 

[lucillemara]

I'm not, but I will side eye anyone who uses the phrase without being clear what they are referring to

another thing people need to stop doing is ignoring the bourgeois nature of fascism and blaming racism entirely on the "white working class", an abstract concept onto which white leftists, liberals and tories project their unacknowledged baggage onto so that they can simultaneously distance themselves from and pander to fascist sentiment

 

[Athos]

I'm not, but I will side eye anyone who uses the phrase without being clear what they are referring to.

That's been a big part of the problem with discussing identity politics on these boards - people taking it mean different things, then talking past each other. I'm not sure you over-free use of the f word helps with that, though.

 

[heebyjeeby]

So say White. Be clear and stop using terms that I can use to describe myself and others like me as code for White.

Yeah..about that demanding thing...I dont do them.....

Indegenous...unless you are playing silly semantic games it doesnt just mean 'born here'

 

[heebyjeeby]

the coverup, if you're implying what I think, is a coverup of police misogyny with a transparent lie that the credulous media bought because it spoke to classical proto-fascist anxieties and was allowed to fester and spread because of left-liberal cowardice and a total shutout of counterhegemonic views

and yeah, not only is "indigenous" in this context identity politics, it's actual blood and soil shit so it's no wonder you're worried about overuse of the f word

It was a cover up by police, social services and local politicians scared of being called racist...by people like you...thereby allowing the issue to fester and people assuming a more sinister agenda. I am not at all worried about your absurd use of the word.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Yeah..about that demanding thing...I dont do them.....

Indegenous...unless you are playing silly semantic games it doesnt just mean 'born here'

Back peddling like a good'un. You are using it to mean White. It only means that to those that think in particular ways and are just too fucking chicken shit to say White because they are cowards. What are you scared of?

 

[lucillemara]

It was a cover up by police, social services and local politicians scared of being called racist...by people like you...thereby allowing the issue to fester and people assuming a more sinister agenda. I am not at all worried about your absurd use of the word.

again, you are a credulous dupe for believing obvious pig lies and the sinister agenda is already there in your framing of the issue

 

[lucillemara]

because we all know how good the police usually are at dealing with sexual violence

 

[heebyjeeby]

Back peddling like a good'un. You are using it to mean White. It only means that to those that think in particular ways and are just too fucking chicken shit to say White because they are cowards. What are you scared of?

Oh do stop being so hysterical. I don't mean white as I said before I mean a sub set of white people.

 

[heebyjeeby]

again, you are a credulous dupe for believing obvious pig lies and the sinister agenda is already there in your framing of the issue

Oh and you have all the special knowledge at your fingertips. Unless you can give me actual evidence I shall beleive that it was, indeed, covered up for that reason.

 

[heebyjeeby]

again, you are a credulous dupe for believing obvious pig lies and the sinister agenda is already there in your framing of the issue

oh and 'pig lies' ffs your use of Jargon is hilarious

 

[Athos]

It was a cover up by police, social services and local politicians scared of being called racist...by people like you...thereby allowing the issue to fester and people assuming a more sinister agenda. I am not at all worried about your absurd use of the word.

Anyone who's had any dealings with the police knows they're profoundly racist; the idea that, en masse, they'd miss a chance to bang up muslims is ridiculous. The idea that they failed to act for fear of being accused of racism was a convenient ex post facto excuse for their failure to act as a result of misogyny and classism. Which isn't to say that everyone who believes tht lie is a fascist, or that we shouldn't engage with their wrongheaded concerns (but simply that we shouldn't indulge them with credibility).

 

[Treacle Toes]

Oh do stop being so hysterical. I don't mean white as I said before I mean a sub set of white people.

Yes, you mean White. There is nothing hysterical about my knowing that and calling you on it.

 

[lucillemara]

.

Oh do stop being so hysterical. I don't mean white as I said before I mean a sub set of white people.

are you one of the good ones because you're middle class unlike the poor racist proles who just can't help themselves?
also are you idpol-ing with your interesting choice of language here?

Oh and you have all the special knowledge at your fingertips. Unless you can give me actual evidence I shall beleive that it was, indeed, covered up for that reason.

because you, despite your disavowals, are primed to be sympathetic to their narrative for shall we say identitarian reasons, despite blaming it all on the plebs

oh and 'pig lies' ffs your use of Jargon is hilarious

acab

 

[8ball]

In this country I think “indigenous” can generally only mean “people whose ancestry going back a few generations were mostly born here”.

 

[lucillemara]

this usage is BNP language that we can thank Labour for helping to popularise as part of their "we're racist too" push in the Brown era

 

[heebyjeeby]

Yes, you mean White. There is nothing hysterical about my knowing that and calling you on it.

'calling me' oh superb...really? Oh dear this is like some sort of US college denouncing, get a grip

 

[heebyjeeby]

this usage is BNP language that we can thank Labour for helping to popularise as part of their "we're racist too" push in the Brown era

Oh do shut up. BNP language my arse