Feminism and a world designed for men

[friendofdorothy]

I don't think I'm being defeatist. I think I'm acknowledging the ubiquitous and huge scale of the problem not suggesting that nothing useful can be done.

My sudden optismistic enthusiam didn't last long, I've gone back to feeling weighed down by it all again.

Bosses think its not impartant even trivial. Again and again women 'put up with it' 'don't like to make a fuss' and find their concerns and complaints fall on deaf ears.

 

[chainsawjob]

Don't even get me started on some of the outsize hi-vis's I've had to wear I know not in the same ballpark as other PPE, but it would be nice if they didn't just slip off at the shoulders through being so huge. Luckily I'm a size 8 in footwear, so getting steelies hasn't been such an issue equationgirl, but yeah, smaller sizes are often not in the repertoire. Sigh. PPE really needs to fit to be effective (stating the bleedin' obvious I know), luckily the chainsaw PPE I had was actually a good fit, even though I inherited it from a bloke, he was about my size.

 

[chainsawjob]

Sorry it's dragging you down again friendofdorothy

 

[TopCat]

Don't even get me started on some of the outsize hi-vis's I've had to wear I know not in the same ballpark as other PPE, but it would be nice if they didn't just slip off at the shoulders through being so huge. Luckily I'm a size 8 in footwear, so getting steelies hasn't been such an issue equationgirl, but yeah, smaller sizes are often not in the repertoire. Sigh. PPE really needs to fit to be effective (stating the bleedin' obvious I know), luckily the chainsaw PPE I had was actually a good fit, even though I inherited it from a bloke, he was about my size.

I used to organise uniform orders that included PPE for a largely woman workforce. High viz tabards were straightforward to source, ones that fitted and what the staff wanted. I let them choose from a range of samples. More interesting was safety shoes. Many of the staff had to use a wheelchair lift for clients to get them on and off buses. It was a high risk activity mitigated by the wearing of safety shoes. Problem was many of the shoes in the right sizes were clumpy and horrible, no style at ll. But I found with research that there are many many styles of safety shoe for women available. Ring the supplier, lend me a pair of each type and let the staff decide what they want. They had (non slip) heels and all sorts. People were chuffed and wore them.

 

[chainsawjob]

Yeah, I know it exists, and it's possible to get hold of, it's the it not being thought of, and the default sizing being 'male'/larger that's the issue here. If the default sizing were 'female'/smaller sizes, larger people (statistically mostly men) would complain too.

 

[Poot]

I used to organise uniform orders that included PPE for a largely woman workforce. High viz tabards were straightforward to source, ones that fitted and what the staff wanted. I let them choose from a range of samples. More interesting was safety shoes. Many of the staff had to use a wheelchair lift for clients to get them on and off buses. It was a high risk activity mitigated by the wearing of safety shoes. Problem was many of the shoes in the right sizes were clumpy and horrible, no style at ll. But I found with research that there are many many styles of safety shoe for women available. Ring the supplier, lend me a pair of each type and let the staff decide what they want. They had (non slip) heels and all sorts. People were chuffed and wore them.

That's good, but they should be as standard as the men's. They shouldn't require a special order. That's really the point. Women aren't special cases, we can't always wear the same style as men because our feet and gait are different, but that should be common knowledge.

 

[equationgirl]

Exactly, it's the whole 'if I were a man I could walk down to stores and get a new set of overalls, but as a woman I have to special order things which takes a week or more' thing. Why should I have to wait for PPE? Men don't.

TopCat it's good that you made an effort to source decent PPE for everyone, but in my experience you are very much the exception not the rule.

 

[Poot]

Yep. It's good that you did it topcat but you shouldn't have to.

This is my go-to website, for example. Greenham Site | Homepage

What you see is that there are - for example - trousers, and then there are women's trousers. Male is the default. If this is always the case with PPE then it's not much of a leap to see why only male face masks are ordered by those in charge. And that the 75% of key health workers who aren't male end up putting their lives at risk. This is the culture that needs to change.

 

[Artaxerxes]

Found this thread interesting.

 

[equationgirl]

The BBC have a big article today about the lack of well-fitting PPE for women in the NHS. I bet some NHS have been talking about it for years...

 

[kabbes]

Found this thread interesting.

To be fair, that guy could really be anything from 35 to 65. We age him because he’s bald but remove that and he’s quite indeterminate. And to me, she looks anything from about 30 to 50. In modern terms, we tend to assume 25-40 years for the age difference between father and daughter and those two do not look anything like that different in ages. When you’re reminded that it’s from another era, you can mentally adjust but this requires conscious effort.

To me, he looks about 5-10 years older than her. Then again, I am appalling at guessing ages.

 

[FabricLiveBaby!]

To be fair, that guy could really be anything from 35 to 65. We age him because he’s bald but remove that and he’s quite indeterminate. And to me, she looks anything from about 30 to 50. In modern terms, we tend to assume 25-40 years for the age difference between father and daughter and those two do not look anything like that different in ages. When you’re reminded that it’s from another era, you can mentally adjust but this requires conscious effort.

To me, he looks about 5-10 years older than her. Then again, I am appalling at guessing ages.

That's the problem conflating art and reality.

Art is also influenced by society, and what I find most interesting about learning the history of this painting are how few wrinkles this supposed old man has, and how many frown lines by comparison, the young woman has.

One wonders, does this reflect reality, where the burden of a man's life is passed on to his daughters, or is it reflecting culture, where women serious, powerful young women are depected as "old".

 

[Cloo]

Read 'Invisible Women' last week and at the end, which has a large section about disaster response and how badly women come out of that usually, I was certain this government will commit every fucking error she discusses in the book. Women's invisible labour is going to factor approximately nowhere in recovery plans and the need for childcare will be an afterthought, not a bedrock that it should be (for both men and women). I fear the outcomes could really set women back - as well as minority groups for all the same reasons of non-consultation and positioning as 'non-people'. And no one's going to think about women - the only women in the Tory hierarchy, as my husband has pointed out, are ones who get there by acting and thinking like men (and thinking for men to get their approval and to prove they're not shrill and whingey like those other women)

 

[Santino]

Found this thread interesting.

The pendant around the woman's neck has a picture of Persephone, which would make the man Hades, bearing a trident as underworld figures often do. And which would explain their funereal presentation.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Heard lots about the inequity of pensions lately. How most govt tax relief goes to men.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Also not one, but three medical scandals in the news lately that badly effect women.
Will look for links when I had time.

 

[Pickman's model]

..

 

[Poot]

Also not one, but three medical scandals in the news lately that badly effect women.
Will look for links when I had time.

I don't know whether this was one of them, but it was quite interesting. Especially the bit about Republicans v Democrats:

Why men are less likely to wear face masks

 

[friendofdorothy]

No nothing to do with fragile male egos. I meant actual medical scandals - women disabled by treatment and drugs causing birth defects. These things have gone on for years and women in pain not being listened to, these things being seen as 'women's problems'.

 

[friendofdorothy]

Denial of women's concerns contributed to decades of medical scandals, says inquiry

Review into vaginal mesh and other products reveals much patient harm was ‘avoidable’

www.theguardian.com

 

[friendofdorothy]

You would think that after the thalidomide scandal things would have changed. Big pharma has a lot to answer for.

 

[friendofdorothy]

bump - just came across this article. Its not new - but very relevant to this thread

Google Has a Striking History of Bias Against Black Girls

From linking girls with porn to characterizing hairstyles as 'unprofessional'

time.com

 

[8ball]

bump - just came across this article. Its not new - but very relevant to this thread

Google Has a Striking History of Bias Against Black Girls

From linking girls with porn to characterizing hairstyles as 'unprofessional'

time.com

Seems difficult for Google in a way. Like these algorithms are doing what they do just fine in terms of pulling connected ideas together, and so they're going to unearth all sorts of ugly stuff in the culture.
If you mess with the algorithms a lot, your algorithms become less useful.

tl;dr - it's the culture, not the algorithm
imo

obv fixing the algorithm will be easier than the culture, but that's like not treating your lung cancer until it starts making your CT scans look ugly

 

[friendofdorothy]

Seems difficult for Google in a way. Like these algorithms are doing what they do just fine in terms of pulling connected ideas together, and so they're going to unearth all sorts of ugly stuff in the culture.
If you mess with the algorithms a lot, your algorithms become less useful.

tl;dr - it's the culture, not the algorithm
imo

obv fixing the algorithm will be easier than the culture, but that's like not treating your lung cancer until it starts making your CT scans look ugly

so dont you think the culture of the people who run google and write the algorithms plays a part?

 

[8ball]

so dont you think the culture of the people who run google and write the algorithms plays a part?

I don't know, but I think it's more likely they are using algorithms that pull out what is there based on statistical associations in what is trawled up from the internet.
Ie. maybe the associations are a reasonably unbiased picture of the data, which is a dataset produced by a culture with problems.

Maybe the algorithm is just telling us what we don’t want to hear about ourselves.

Not saying that’s the only thing happening, esp. when advertising comes into it, just that when you point powerful algorithms at a massive bank of human culture, it seems reasonable to expect that it will flag up some uncomfortable truths.

 

[BristolEcho]

There was a debate on women's health in the Welsh Assembly the other day. I came across it randomly and thought Sioned Williams made some really great points especially the disparity in research and general lack of understanding. Thought the labour person was a bit defensive to be honest, but couldn't finish bit all.

Found a link on here. Senedd Cymru - Welsh Parliament, Women's Health Debate: www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m00182m4

 

[Dystopiary]

If you look for men's utility trousers under "workwear" on ebay, nearly all the results that come up are relevant.
If you look for women's utility trousers under "workwear" on ebay, you get joggers, shorts, yoga pants, leggings, and a few cargo-style that aren't that practical.

 

[AnnO'Neemus]

Read 'Invisible Women' last week and at the end, which has a large section about disaster response and how badly women come out of that usually, I was certain this government will commit every fucking error she discusses in the book. Women's invisible labour is going to factor approximately nowhere in recovery plans and the need for childcare will be an afterthought, not a bedrock that it should be (for both men and women). I fear the outcomes could really set women back - as well as minority groups for all the same reasons of non-consultation and positioning as 'non-people'. And no one's going to think about women - the only women in the Tory hierarchy, as my husband has pointed out, are ones who get there by acting and thinking like men (and thinking for men to get their approval and to prove they're not shrill and whingey like those other women)

Very prescient.

 

[Cloo]

so dont you think the culture of the people who run google and write the algorithms plays a part?

I do think they have a responsibility to consider 'Where could our algorithm reinforce negative societal ideas?' and to try to do something about it.

 

[friendofdorothy]

. dp