Fate of EU citizens in the UK post Brexit

[andysays]

Not sure what point you were making then, why on earth would i ever use a postcard to try to get a passport? I am good at this stuff, i have three.
The postcards thing was on the government website, where you go to find the list of what is required for settled status.
Not my idea, just found the list of rejected evidence (scrap books, birthday cards etc) quite moving tbh. And I was not being entirely serious when i said If I was the home office.

Most of your posting history appears to be "not being entirely serious", TBH.

If you were actually serious about this issue, you could have started with a list of which documents are required or acceptable, and why some people might not have what's necessary, but if you already have three passports I suppose it's all just something to have a laugh about on the internet rather than something which affects you directly.

 

[bimble]

Oh sod off. You’re just being silly now. The list of rejected documents is what I wanted to post . Maybe I should have asked you first.

You don’t really think I’m here having a laugh about people becoming illegal through lack of paperwork.

 

[Yossarian]

Not my idea, just found the list of rejected evidence (scrap books, birthday cards etc) quite moving tbh.

It is kind of moving - the older people now having difficulties must include a lot of widows or widowers whose partners spoke better English and took care of the paperwork.

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

It is kind of moving - the older people now having difficulties must include a lot of widows or widowers whose partners spoke better English and took care of the paperwork.

Not my ‘orrible cunt of a step mother though, she got settled status in around 30 minutes. The whole fucking point of Brexit was to send her back to Utrecht

 

[tim]

Not sure what point you were making then, why on earth would i ever use a postcard to try to get a passport? I am good at this stuff, i have three.
The postcards thing was on the government website, where you go to find the list of what is required for settled status.
Not my idea, just found the list of rejected evidence (scrap books, birthday cards etc) quite moving tbh. And I was not being entirely serious when i said If I was the home office.

I remember when you could go to the Post Office taking a form supposedly signed by a middle-class professional, a birth certificate or other scrap of paper that said you were who you said you were, a £10 note, and be issued with a cream card pamphlet passport. It was, however, only valid for one year.

The British Visitor's Passport - The Simplicity Of A Travel Document

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I remember when you could go to the Post Office taking a form supposedly signed by a middle-class professional, a Birth Certificate or other scrap of paper that said you were who you were: and £10 be issued with a cream card pamphlet passport. It was, however, only valid for one year.

The British Visitor's Passport - The Simplicity Of A Travel Document

View attachment 280311

My first passport was one of those. Only really for a few countries like bits of Western Europe iirc.

 

[Spymaster]

I remember when you could go to the Post Office taking a form supposedly signed by a middle-class professional, a birth certificate or other scrap of paper that said you were who you said you were, a £10 note, and be issued with a cream card pamphlet passport. It was, however, only valid for one year.

The British Visitor's Passport - The Simplicity Of A Travel Document

View attachment 280311

You needed a birth certificate and proof of ID (bank statement or bill) to get one of those. Pretty much the same as EU citizens needed to get (pre)/settled status here. They were scrapped because other EU states didn't like them.

 

[Raheem]

I had one of the salmon card passports. The woman behind the counter put down my place of birth as "Pontyfract, Wales". Not sure it was a foolproof system.

 

[brogdale]

You needed a birth certificate and proof of ID (bank statement or bill) to get one of those. Pretty much the same as EU citizens needed to get (pre)/settled status here. They were scrapped because other EU states didn't like them.

The official line at the time, (1994), was that their ease of purchase presented a security loophole. There were also claims that they were too costly to administer and that the Spanish, in one of their periodic fits of Gib-induced pique, had stated that they would o longer be acceptable.

 

[Spymaster]

The official line at the time, (1994), was that their ease of purchase presented a security loophole. There were also claims that they were too costly to administer and that the Spanish, in one of their periodic fits of Gib-induced pique, had stated that they would o longer be acceptable.

I used one to go to Germany. The passport bloke in Frankfurt looked at it disdainfully, picked my photo off (it had been fixed on with a Pritt-Stick in Bracknell post office), folded it back into the card, chucked it back through the little hole, and nodded me through.

 

[bimble]

Getting my most recent passport, the Slovakian one, purely a Remoaner luxury item, was an interesting process. Took about a year, around £200, all of my best googling skills, my Dad's original birth certificate (which had JEW stamped on it, which was interesting to see), loads of help from nice people at the embassy. It was a proper slog, had a special A4 folder on the go and everything.
If I hadn't had his original birth certificate it would have been a nie. pure luck.

 

[brogdale]

I used one to go to Germany. The passport bloke in Frankfurt looked at it disdainfully, picked my photo off (it had been fixed on with a Pritt-Stick), folded it back into the card, chucked it back through the little hole, and nodded me through.

Passport tales, eh?

When my Mrs had her passport stolen at the Gard du Nord, we had to go to the Rue du Faubourg Saint-Honoré to see Tarquin to get a ETD/"emergency passport" to get her back home. Trouble was, to get to the fucking doorbell we had to pass though a post-Sands Republican sympathy protest...ended up with an armed diplo-protection Gendarme sticking the muzzle of his machine gun into my midriff yelling pourquoi exactement into my (then pretty terrified) face.

Of course, once inside it was all tea, biscuits and portraits of Brenda and the thing I most remember was when she'd finally got the papers asking Tarquin where the nearest Metro station was and him not really grasping the concept of public transport.

 

[Supine]

That doesn't mean they need to "do nothing".

It refers to EU citizens "lawfully resident in the UK", so obviously their lawful status would have to be proven. It's like saying anyone passing a driving test will automatically be granted a licence. They'd still have to apply for it and show they passed the test. And again, there were huge campaigns, TV and press, before Brexit telling them what they needed to do (it wasn't nothing). Over 5 million EU citizens have successfully applied and been granted settled or pre-settled status,. They all got the message just fine so nobody has been blindsided here.

so you’re defending Johnson, Patel and Gove on this? Do you know about Windrush?

 

[pseudonarcissus]

That doesn't mean they need to "do nothing".

It refers to EU citizens "lawfully resident in the UK", so obviously their lawful status would have to be proven. It's like saying anyone passing a driving test will automatically be granted a licence. They'd still have to apply for it and show they passed the test. And again, there were huge campaigns, TV and press, before Brexit telling them what they needed to do (it wasn't nothing). Over 5 million EU citizens have successfully applied and been granted settled or pre-settled status,. They all got the message just fine so nobody has been blindsided here.

as you say, 5 million have been successful. Unfortunately it seems, again, it's the elderly and the vulnerable that have not been looked after. The very people that may not have much exposure to the media and no on-line access.

 

[Gramsci]

Talking of passports East European friend of mine has gone all the way to get British Passport/ citizenship.

She finally got it. Its not cheap or easy. You have to pass an exam in Britishness. I saw some of the book she had to learn from and its embarrassing. Makes out this is great Liberal freedom loving country. Her experience of the run up to to the EU referendum and the Brexit vote somewhat changed her mind about this country.

When she first came her she was glad to be somewhere less conservative socially than her own country in Eastern Europe. The referendum and Brexit vote changed her perception of this country.

When she was granted her new citizenship of this country she told me she now is citizen of two racist countries.

She went the whole hog as her life is here now.

But her story makes me ashamed of this country.

All the posts here about how the form filling is not that difficult. Its just remoaners making a fuss. This forgets what it feels like for many East and Southern Europeans to have to apply to stay in a country they had thought they originally had right to live in.

Not everything is about whether the bureaucracy is difficult or not.

Though to add my friend was aware of the Windrush generation and didn't trust the settled status system long term. Which I feel is not being paranoid.

 

[Gramsci]

Also on British passports. They aren't for life.

British friend of mines mum came from the Republic of Ireland in her teens.

Worked her all her life and had British passport.

Few years back went to renew it. They told her she couldn't even thought she had had one for years.

They told her to apply for Eire passport. She had right to stay her as Irish national but she wasn't British.

This as my friend said was an insult at his mum who had worked in this country all her adult life.

Point is governments change rules and procedures.

 

[Gramsci]

One way to avoid some of this is to have a declaratory system. Where rights of EU citizens resident here are enshrined in law. There would be no deadline. If they need to they apply to go on a register.

But they would not potentially lose all rights due to the deadline.

But government haven't gone down this route.

 

[Gramsci]

Another thing this shows is how the hostile environment is now considered common sense.

Argument by government against the Declaratory system, as I understand it, is that there was one for the Windrush generation and that meant a lot of people did not go through with it.

An issue with that was back then one could work, rent etc without a lot of the rules that landlords and employers have to apply. Making them a form of immigration control.

So a lot of people from Windrush generation got on with their lives and didn't think about it.

I used to know people who rented and worked here but whose immigration status was questionable. You could years ago.

The arguments here about how the bureaucracy is fine miss that its more rigorous than decades back. As Windrush generation found.

Gradually over years the anti immigration view in this country has gained ground. With EU citizens being the latest.

 

[ska invita]

It is kind of moving - the older people now having difficulties must include a lot of widows or widowers whose partners spoke better English and took care of the paperwork.

Again, worth revisitng the links at the start of the thread as to who was expected to be particularly vulnerable in this process: children, old people, others in "precarious" positions...

And you didn't ever need a passport to come to the UK, you just need an id card... Lots of people don't have passports in the EU.

 

[Spymaster]

so you’re defending Johnson, Patel and Gove on this? Do you know about Windrush?

Lol, here we go. Any criticism of remoaner bollocks is a defence of the government. Typical last grasp at a straw. You came out with some nonsense about EU citizens resident in the UK being told they need do nothing. You were wrong and we’ve established that. Just accept it. The government has fucked-up loads of shit; just not what you’re suggesting in this case. Windrush wasn’t Brexit related either.

 

[Spymaster]

Also on British passports. They aren't for life.

British friend of mines mum came from the Republic of Ireland in her teens.

Worked her all her life and had British passport.

Few years back went to renew it. They told her she couldn't even thought she had had one for years.

They told her to apply for Eire passport. She had right to stay her as Irish national but she wasn't British.

This as my friend said was an insult at his mum who had worked in this country all her adult life.

Point is governments change rules and procedures.

What reason was your friend’s mum given for this? What you describe sounds effectively like having their citizenship revoked. This can only be done by the Home Secretary in exceptional circumstances.

Or had she been misbehaving?

When you can get or hold a British passport​

You must have British nationality to apply for or hold a British passport.

Having British nationality does not guarantee you a passport. For example, you may not get a new passport (or your existing passport may be taken from you) if:

• you’re suspected of a serious crime and an arrest warrant has been issued
• a court order stops you having a UK passport or restricts your travel
• you’re on bail and bail conditions mean you cannot leave the UK
• you’ve been brought back to the UK before at the government’s expense and have not repaid what you owe
• you’ve received a European Union or United Nations order which restricts your travel

A passport can also be cancelled or not renewed if it’s for a child and there’s a court order in place stopping the child from leaving the UK.

Your eligibility and entitlement to a British passport will be considered when you apply.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

The government website which lists what kind of evidence they will and won't accept from people trying to prove that they've been resident here for the required length of time includes this little list of things which are not allowed.

View attachment 280267


that little list is obviously there because of people trying to jump through the required hoops but lacking a filing cabinet containing the correct documents spanning 5 years.

Looking at the list, my mum would not i think have been able to prove her right to stay, despite living here for some 35 years.

Ah yes, official government documents.
I tried getting a copy of my birth certificate last year so I could move my former work pension out of the UK. Should be relatively easy you should think. Given how much emphasis they place on having the correct paperwork.
There are no digital archives from 1959 to 1993. There is a charity project that they point you in the direction of (srsly), of volunteers that have tried scanning the microfiche documents into some sort of database and it is up to you to find your entry and provide them with the reference and they then get your birth certificate. Which is a mess and pretty unreadable.
Except they couldn’t. Computer says no.
Which begs the question - how can they even check the validity of passport applications made?
In the end I got a copy from the local registrar where I was born. Beyond jokes.

 

[Spymaster]

Ah yes, official government documents.
I tried getting a copy of my birth certificate last year so I could move my former work pension out of the UK. Should be relatively easy you should think. Given how much emphasis they place on having the correct paperwork.
There are no digital archives from 1959 to 1993. There is a charity project that they point you in the direction of (srsly), of volunteers that have tried scanning the microfiche documents into some sort of database and it is up to you to find your entry and provide them with the reference and they then get your birth certificate. Which is a mess and pretty unreadable.
Except they couldn’t. Computer says no.
Which begs the question - how can they even check the validity of passport applications made?
In the end I got a copy from the local registrar where I was born. Beyond jokes.

Next time use this: Order a copy of a birth, death or marriage certificate

Takes about 5 minutes.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

Fill it out then and let me know how you get on. They will take you through the payment steps first.

 

[pseudonarcissus]

Windrush wasn’t Brexit related either.

No, but it was caused by the fucking evil, adversarial, hostile workings of the Home Office. I guess from the grin you have never had to deal with the immigration system in the UK.

We gave up and left. I dropped off an application for permanent residence in my partner's country's consulate on a Wednesday and had the approval on the Friday.

 

[Boris Sprinkler]

In fact read what you link and it actually states what I just said. They link to this : FreeBMD Home Page

 

[pseudonarcissus]

What reason was your friend’s mum given for this? What you describe sounds effectively like having their citizenship revoked. This can only be done by the Home Secretary in exceptional circumstances.

Or had she been misbehaving?

Historically, a British passport was not proof of citizenship, it was just a travel document, unlike some countries. Applying for a US passport was historically more complicated than getting your GP to vouch for you, for example. It has become de facto proof more recently. It's one of the reasons the visitor passports disappeared.

 

[Spymaster]

Fill it out then and let me know how you get on. They will take you through the payment steps first.

Ok, done. Just received an email confirmation from the GRO.

At what point did you have a problem? I've ordered several birth certificates from them to research the family tree. Never had any issues.

 

[Spymaster]

In fact read what you link and it actually states what I just said. They link to this : FreeBMD Home Page

No. Just click "start now". I've just done it and ordered my BC.



Maybe I just got lucky.

The service announcement referred to is about delays in processing due to C19.

 

[pseudonarcissus]

British people tend to be rather smug when thinking about the bureaucracy of other countries. I was born in the UK in the late 60s. A National Insurance Card dropped through the letter box when I was 16. A year or so after, I got a green paper driving licence with no photo and valid until I was 75. Passports were easy to get; the most complicated step was getting a middle class professional to sign the back of the photo for the first one. I have been renewing full passports since I was about 19 and currently have 2 to ease the process of continuing travel when applying for visas in far off lands. I could register with a GP and no one thought of demanding any form of ID, let alone a passport.

If you have had that sort of privileged life, the UK bureaucracy works fine and is very simple.

When I applied for a spousal visa for my other half, for me, everything changed. Suddenly the government is actively disbelieving you are who you say you are. They publish lists of documents they require, but behind this there are invisible rules with extra requirements that they don't tell you about. I get the impression HO staff get a bonus for every application they reject, or kick out into the long grass.

You now need a lawyer to deal with government on your behalf. this is a fundamental change in the relationship between state and the population. If you have read the threads on the immigration system, or worse, the benefits system you should have figured this out.