Fate of EU citizens in the UK post Brexit

[Spymaster]

Ok, on refection, the Oose.

It's the Ouse, but yes. Perhaps just a quick dunking though.

 

[Orang Utan]

I’d have thought the opposite. Surely if you know that you were born in an EU state, don’t have a Brit passport, and know that the UK is leaving the EU; you check out your status?

maybe if you have the resources you and i have, but not everyone follows current affairs, some might not speak English well, and some might be illiterate.

 

[andysays]

That you're more likely to forward positive messages.

I think it's probably true of most people that they will, on the whole, post stuff favourable to their position, which is why it comes as no surprise that you, for instance, seem to post pretty much exclusively negative messages about Brexit.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think it's probably true of most people that they will, on the whole, post stuff favourable to their position, which is why it comes as no surprise that you, for instance, seem to post pretty much exclusively negative messages about Brexit.

it could be because there is so little positive news about brexit

 

[andysays]

worth perhaps reading the first post on this thread
the vast majority of people will be fine
but a percentage won't.
that was always going to be the case
and even 1% of 3.5 million is 35,000 people
if it is only 1% that would be a huge success by the states standards. a disaster nonetheless for those affected
current information (a few pages back) suggests we are looking at hundreds of thouands unregistered, not tens.
the important thing for everyone is to support where we can and resist evictions, denial of health treatment, and deportations etc. not pretend it isn't happening because it feels personally inconvenient.

But I haven't denied that any of that is happening, and I've repeatedly made clear that I'm against it happening.

 

[editor]

I think it's probably true of most people that they will, on the whole, post stuff favourable to their position, which is why it comes as no surprise that you, for instance, seem to post pretty much exclusively negative messages about Brexit.

I wish there were positive things to say about Brexit but as far as I can see, it's mainly an ongoing crock of shit that is negatively impacting on many people's lives.

It's certainly shafted me personally and fucked over the careers of a lot of my friends.

 

[andysays]

I wish there were positive things to say about Brexit but as far as I can see, it's mainly an ongoing crock of shit that is negatively impacting on many people's lives.

It's certainly shafted me personally and fucked over the careers of a lot of my friends.

Handy that, given your anti-Brexit stance...

 

[editor]

Handy that, given your anti-Brexit stance...

I've lost a load of work, income and opportunities because of Brexit. How is that 'handy'? Please explain.

 

[Pickman's model]

Handy that, given your anti-Brexit stance...

although despite my previous post perhaps the clusterfuck that is brexit will prove a good thing, in that i expect it's very hard these days to find anyone who is as persuaded now as they might have been on 22 june 2016 that the ruling class have a scintilla of notion of what they're doing. the first person i spoke to about brexit, some time before the referendum, told me that he felt it would open up political opportunities which weren't previously there. we've seen ukip and farage, formerly such a force in british politics, relegated to the sidelines. one-nation toryism has all but disappeared from the parliamentary conservative party, and is i think unlikely to return. the labour party is eating itself alive again. and the fun hasn't even really started yet, the slow shipwreck of brexit has already undone a load of auld certainties in british politics and will before it's done leave the political landscape very different.

 

[Raheem]

although despite my previous post perhaps the clusterfuck that is brexit will prove a good thing, in that i expect it's very hard these days to find anyone who is as persuaded now as they might have been on 22 june 2016 that the ruling class have a scintilla of notion of what they're doing. the first person i spoke to about brexit, some time before the referendum, told me that he felt it would open up political opportunities which weren't previously there. we've seen ukip and farage, formerly such a force in british politics, relegated to the sidelines. one-nation toryism has all but disappeared from the parliamentary conservative party, and is i think unlikely to return. the labour party is eating itself alive again. and the fun hasn't even really started yet, the slow shipwreck of brexit has already undone a load of auld certainties in british politics and will before it's done leave the political landscape very different.

What we've got is arguably the worst of both world's though. Few people have faith that the ruling class have a clue, yet we seem to have reverted to the idea that they are our natural born leaders. Instead of ditching them, we've ditched the idea that it matters whether they are competent or not.

 

[Spymaster]

Handy that, given your anti-Brexit stance...

Had this on another thread recently. A remainer recently posted a nightmare farrago that his friend had, ordering from a Canadian company, a product delivered via Germany. Last week I ordered from the same website and also had the product delivered from Germany. It arrived 3 or 4 days after I ordered it and there was no duty to pay. Smooth as silk. One might conclude that many remoaner accounts of woe on here are embellished, at best.

 

[Pickman's model]

What we've got is arguably the worst of both world's though. Few people have faith that the ruling class have a clue, yet we seem to have reverted to the idea that they are our natural born leaders. Instead of ditching them, we've ditched the idea that it matters whether they are competent or not.

yeh the game is yet in play and the end in doubt

 

[andysays]

I've lost a load of work, income and opportunities because of Brexit. How is that 'handy'? Please explain.

So it's OK for you to post

Handy that, given your pro Brexit stance.

but if I post

Handy that, given your anti-Brexit stance...

you ask me to explain

 

[andysays]

Had this on another thread recently. A remainer recently posted a nightmare farrago that his friend had, ordering from a Canadian company, a product delivered via Germany. Last week I ordered from the same website and also had the product delivered from Germany. It arrived 3 or 4 days after I ordered it and there was no duty to pay. Smooth as silk. One might conclude that many remoaner accounts of woe on here are embellished, at best.

I don't know if they're embellished or not, I'm sure some people have had significant problems as a result of Brexit (and more particularly the shitty implementation of Brexit), but that isn't in itself an argument for saying Brexit was necessarily a bad idea all round.

 

[Supine]

Going back to that Spanish lady, nice to see the GoodLaw team are going to get involved. It hardly seems fair as it was promised that EU nationals living in U.K. would be given automatic settled status so they didn't have to do anything.

 

[Spymaster]

... it was promised that EU nationals living in U.K. would be given automatic settled status so they didn't have to do anything.

Err, are you sure about that? I think you're wrong.

There was a huge campaign prior to leaving explaining what EU nationals needed to do prior to the given dates. As far as I recall, none of the advice given was 'do nothing'.

 

[Pickman's model]

Going back to that Spanish lady, nice to see the GoodLaw team are going to get involved. It hardly seems fair as it was promised that EU nationals living in U.K. would be given automatic settled status so they didn't have to do anything.

oh dear

there is of course more but that's the most relevant bit

 

[Supine]

Err, are you sure about that? I think you're wrong.

There was a huge campaign prior to leaving explaining what EU nationals needed to do prior to the given dates. As far as I recall, none of the advice given was 'do nothing'.

It was Johnson who said it, so almost certainly wrong!

 

[editor]

I don't know if they're embellished or not, I'm sure some people have had significant problems as a result of Brexit (and more particularly the shitty implementation of Brexit), but that isn't in itself an argument for saying Brexit was necessarily a bad idea all round.

So it it's not a bad idea, how has it been a good idea 'all round'?

What amazing benefits have been worth the immense costs of fudging through endless legislation, the associated rise in xenophobia, the problems in Northern Ireland, the loss of earnings for musicians and the music industry, small business being fucked over, and the cruel uncertainty for people like the lady who has lived in the UK almost all of her life?

Meanwhile:

Five years on from the Brexit referendum, the result is clear: both unions are losing

The UK has been weakened, but so too has the EU. Relations between them need not be this bad, says Guardian columnist Timothy Garton Ash

www.theguardian.com

Damaging legacy of Brexit

Scotland has right to choose different future.

www.gov.scot

 

[Spymaster]

It was Johnson who said it, so almost certainly wrong!

Well whatever, but there's no way that any EU nationals living here should have been under the illusion that residency was automatic and they needed to do nothing. Once again going back to personal experiences but I know of many, all of whom got busy in the year or two prior to Brexit and got their shit sorted. These tales of woe, much beloved in remoaner land are exceptions, not the rule.

 

[Pickman's model]

It was Johnson who said it, so almost certainly wrong!

i'd be very interested if you could produce a link confirming this because a check of newspapers going back before 2016 suggests no such thing

 

[tim]

Well whatever, but there's no way that any EU nationals living here should have been under the illusion that residency was automatic and they needed to do nothing. Once again going back to personal experiences but I know of many, all of whom got busy in the year or two prior to Brexit and got their shit sorted. These tales of woe, much beloved in remoaner land, are exceptions, not the rule.

The problem is residency is automatic but they have to do something, which has created pointless messes like this. Given the blowback over "Windrush", you'd have thought even the most rabid Tories would have seen the potential of this rebounding

 

[Spymaster]

The problem is residency is automatic but they have to do something ...

Not sure what you mean by this

 

[tim]

Not sure what you mean by this

if an EU citizen, who was resident in the UK before BREXIT has applied for the right to remain a resident in the UK. They will be granted that right, for them the same conditions will apply post-BREXIT as applied before BREXIT, so it would have been easier and cheaper just to leave them alone and apply restrictions to those who arrived after EU departure. The current approach, expecting people to be pro-active creates situations like this, and is pointlessly expensive, lining the pockets of the cronies who run Serco and Capita.

 

[andysays]

So it it's not a bad idea, how has it been a good idea 'all round'?

What amazing benefits have been worth the immense costs of fudging through endless legislation, the associated rise in xenophobia, the problems in Northern Ireland, the loss of earnings for musicians and the music industry, small business being fucked over, and the cruel uncertainty for people like the lady who has lived in the UK almost all of her life?

Saying something wasn't a bad idea all round doesn't mean it was necessarily a good idea all round, ie that there are no negative consequences.

I think we've established over a number of years and a number of threads that there is nothing which you are prepared to accept as a benefit of Brexit, so I'm not going to waste anyone's time trying to persuade you otherwise.

 

[Spymaster]

Saying something wasn't a bad idea all round doesn't mean it was necessarily a good idea all round ...

This really shouldn't need explaining!

 

[editor]

Saying something wasn't a bad idea all round doesn't mean it was necessarily a good idea all round, ie that there are no negative consequences.

I think we've established over a number of years and a number of threads that there is nothing which you are prepared to accept as a benefit of Brexit, so I'm not going to waste anyone's time trying to persuade you otherwise.

OK. Well there's a fudge and a half.

So your stance on Brexit is that it's neither bad nor good, yes? So on that basis, do you think it's been worth the immense cost to taxpayers, the rise of xenophobia, the creative industry being fucked over, and all the other negative stuff that's been documented here? Or do you not count those as negatives?

And more importantly, what's the brilliant positives for ordinary folk that cancel out those negatives?

 

[Spymaster]

if an EU citizen, who was resident in the UK before BREXIT has applied for the right to remain a resident in the UK. They will be granted that right, for them the same conditions will apply post-BREXIT as applied before BREXIT, so it would have been easier and cheaper just to leave them alone and apply restrictions to those who arrived after EU departure. The current approach, expecting people to be pro-active creates situations like this, and is pointlessly expensive, lining the pockets of the cronies who run Serco and Capita.

Nonsense. How do you then differentiate those who were here before from those who came after?

 

[tim]

Nonsense. How do you then differentiate those who were here before from those who came after?

The former, if asked will have a National Insurance number issued before BREXIT.

 

[Spymaster]

The former, if asked will have a National Insurance number issued before BREXIT.

What if they didn't/don't?

I