England v South Africa Test Series
- Thread starter SpookyFrank
- Start date
De Wet has played one Test so there's no guarantee he'll be able to perform as well as he did at Centurion.
I like to imagine England letting him and Harris take some wickets in the first Test so they'll be picked for the remainder of the series. Like when they purposely collapse for about 70 to lure the other side into a false sense of security.
liquidlunch
fargonebeauty
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
He's obviously not a token. He has a fine record – nearly 400 wickets at an average of 28, a better average than all but one of the other bowlers in the last match and more than twice the number of wickets of any of them (ETA not quite true as I forgot about Kallis, but still lots more than any of them). But he's gone, and he'd be jettisoned more quickly if he weren't black. Like it or not, it is important that the SA team should not be all white. You pick on merit, sure, but if after 20 years of freedom, the system isn't producing black players, there's something very wrong with the system. Ntini was hugely important as a figure to be emulated. I can understand them wanting to get him right again, but I don't think it will happen. Some bowlers can afford to lose a bit of zip – McGrath, Ambrose; others can't – Ntini, Gillespie, Sidebottom.
TBF though, a player with a record like his deserves a chance to put things right. Jason Gillespie was persevered with for a few matches after he'd clearly lost it too.
But I can't see how they can pick Ntini now, however much they want to.
I think it's a difficult issue, tbh. Black and white people in SA still do not enjoy the same privileges. Black people were denied any chance at all until 20 years ago. The question now is to what extent you now give black players a helping start against their more privileged white colleagues. I'd do it according to potential – in much the same way that some universities in the UK now make lower offers to students from state schools than those from fee-paying schools. In terms of potential, if you went to Eton and still only got three Bs, say, you've probably got less potential than a candidate from a comp with a B and two Cs, and research into eventual undergraduate performance bears that out. Something similar could be extended to a sport like cricket at, for instance, under 19s level – a black player with a shaky technique, but some raw potential may be a better bet, long run, than a more privileged white player with more polished skills.
The parents of children at private schools have been up in arms about the practice of making their kids tougher offers. Some white South Africans have been up in arms at the quota system lower down in the SA cricket system – not least a certain KP Pietersen (one of the reasons I have little time for him). Those in positions of privilege rarely give up that position willingly. What worries me is that the quota system isn't producing black players. Nitini is still the only player to come through who would have been classified as 'black' in the old racist regime, and in truth, he came through despite the system, not because of it. He's a remarkable player in many ways – never been injured and made the most of his talent through sheer persistence.
TBF though, a player with a record like his deserves a chance to put things right. Jason Gillespie was persevered with for a few matches after he'd clearly lost it too.
But I can't see how they can pick Ntini now, however much they want to.
I think it's a difficult issue, tbh. Black and white people in SA still do not enjoy the same privileges. Black people were denied any chance at all until 20 years ago. The question now is to what extent you now give black players a helping start against their more privileged white colleagues. I'd do it according to potential – in much the same way that some universities in the UK now make lower offers to students from state schools than those from fee-paying schools. In terms of potential, if you went to Eton and still only got three Bs, say, you've probably got less potential than a candidate from a comp with a B and two Cs, and research into eventual undergraduate performance bears that out. Something similar could be extended to a sport like cricket at, for instance, under 19s level – a black player with a shaky technique, but some raw potential may be a better bet, long run, than a more privileged white player with more polished skills.
The parents of children at private schools have been up in arms about the practice of making their kids tougher offers. Some white South Africans have been up in arms at the quota system lower down in the SA cricket system – not least a certain KP Pietersen (one of the reasons I have little time for him). Those in positions of privilege rarely give up that position willingly. What worries me is that the quota system isn't producing black players. Nitini is still the only player to come through who would have been classified as 'black' in the old racist regime, and in truth, he came through despite the system, not because of it. He's a remarkable player in many ways – never been injured and made the most of his talent through sheer persistence.
david dissadent
New Member
From the age of 13 he was sent to one of the most expensive and exclusive schools in the country.
There have been other black players who have been of international calibre but dropped out due to injuries. ( Mfuneko Ngam springs to mind.)
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
I don't know what's wrong with the system – I can only look from the results end and see that it has not managed to reach out significantly into black South Africa.
The fact Ntini was 'discovered' and sent to an expensive school kind of makes my point. That isn't a sustainable system to bring through players. Throwing out a tiny number of scholarships to an elitist system doesn't weaken that elitist system – it merely reinforces the point that you need to be within that system to succeed. In fact, I've just looked up a few of the current team, and the majority went to expensive schools. Therein may lie the problem – how many black kids attend those schools?
david dissadent
New Member
I dont think you have any real valid criticism of the cricketing authorities other than blaming them for not magicaly overcoming the legacy of a racially opressive history AND turning cricket into a popular sport with the black comunity in 15 years.
As for the schools, most of the players went to government schools. May be you have not realised that 'public school' in South Africa means a govern run school. Only a couple of them went to the likes of Gray and Selbourne.
As for the schools, most of the players went to government schools. May be you have not realised that 'public school' in South Africa means a govern run school. Only a couple of them went to the likes of Gray and Selbourne.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Government schools that charge fees! You're right that they're not private schools, but state secondary schools in SA charge fees.
In many ways this same problem exists in India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka, where players are also almost exclusively drawn from a narrow rich elite, but this isn't so visually obvious. These are all countries with extreme differences between rich and poor, such extreme differences that something as basic as poor nutrition can exclude the poorest from any chance in sports.
In many ways this same problem exists in India, Pakistan and Sri Lanka, where players are also almost exclusively drawn from a narrow rich elite, but this isn't so visually obvious. These are all countries with extreme differences between rich and poor, such extreme differences that something as basic as poor nutrition can exclude the poorest from any chance in sports.
ivebeenhigh
Well-Known Member
Smith gone!
Dirty Martini
gets what he cant want
For 9 now. Good work, Jimmy
Dirty Martini
gets what he cant want
Bugger
Oh dear.
Dirty Martini
gets what he cant want
Heck
Steady on.
Dirty Martini
gets what he cant want
I'm steady. Collingwoodesque 'heart of oak' me.
Will his innings be 'dogged' or 'gritty'?
Dirty Martini
gets what he cant want
Dogged AND gritty, finally 'brilliant' -- all the while playing 'French cricket'.
