England fans: the racism and the violence

[Loose meat]

I do think a lot of the online stuff is malicious foreign actors, as Southgate seemed to suggest.

All you need is a handful of accounts to reach hundreds of thousands of re-weeting twitterers. Then the BBC picks it up because .. immigration .. brexit .. and so those 3 or 4 accounts almost instantly reach millions. Even tens of millions. Quite extraordinary power, from a dozen or so sentences via free accounts.

 

[Diamond]

All you need is a handful of accounts to reach hundreds of thousands of re-weeting twitterers. Then the BBC picks it up because .. immigration .. brexit .. and so those 3 or 4 accounts almost instantly reach millions. Even tens of millions. Quite extraordinary power.

Yep, this understanding should be much more widespread. I have hope that it will be soon. It's partly a generational thing - how good is your model of social media in your head? I think older people struggle to understand that much of it may well be automated.

 

[Loose meat]

Yep, this understanding should be much more widespread. I have hope that it will be soon. It's partly a generational thing - how good is your model of social media in your head? I think older people struggle to understand that much of it may well be automated.

I'm cynical enough to think it feeds an established narrative and that sells clicks on an ongoing basis.

Legacy media then perpetuates the nonsense story, as does BBC online. And so it continues, week-on-week sprouting endless stories that create division and national self-loathing. All created out of thin air, completely free.

 

[RileyOBlimey]

people always get in to wembley without tickets - you just don't see it and it isn't shared so freely.

but this is why I can't get behind England despite being a football fan. there is undeniably a right-wing, racist, yobbish element that attaches itself to England more so than any club team.

Any club team?! Are you sure of that?

 

[Pickman's model]

people always get in to wembley without tickets - you just don't see it and it isn't shared so freely.

but this is why I can't get behind England despite being a football fan. there is undeniably a right-wing, racist, yobbish element that attaches itself to England more so than any club team.

Have you never heard of rangers?

Glasgow that is not queens park

 

[Humberto]

Wanker politicians that seem so abundant here.

 

[Pickman's model]

Wanker polticians that seem so abundant here.

All politicians are wankers

 

[RileyOBlimey]

Positive social change doesn’t come from above, it’s driven by the grassroots. The Government and other aspects of the state have been forced to concede to the general decency of football fans during last few weeks.

Racism must be highlighted and shown for what is. However, real progress should be celebrated and this tournament overall has been a catalyst for positive change.

 

[purves grundy]

And so what if it is political? If you don't want politics in sport then don't have a sport minister. Don't have the FA. Spare us this dog whistle and hypocrisy. Racism is about power, politics is about power.

Indeed - imo it couldn't be any more political. They're both wrong. The idea that there exist areas of social life or institutions with no trace of history, hierarchy, subordination etc i.e. politics baffles me, but this Tory and the "stick to the football, leave politics out of it" brigade are blind to such things. Football is an apolitical zone; someone coming along and revealing injustice is... well, ideologically distasteful to them. Racism is what's done by that "handful of mindless idiots who don't represent etc etc". For his part the Kick It Out CEO maintains taking the knee and others acts must be non-political - why? Pragmatism, fear of being branded 'Marxist' or 'woke' or whatever? The always-depoliticised nature of projects and campaigns?

 

[BristolEcho]

Here's the thing - almost all of our clients are non-white. And pretty much all of them never mention racism.

It, frankly, has been a bit confusing over the last few years to see this spiking social concern on racism but little sign of people seeking actual legal advice on it.

The odd thing is that we have a brilliant law for all of this (in my view) - the Equality Act 2010. The tools are there and have been throughout the time that I've advised but I've only been called on to use them twice in ten years.

I should disclose though that the one instance of white on non-white racism that I have worked on is an ongoing case and the abuse does actually reference this Johnson cabinet.

So...there is that...to round out the picture

Do you think that's possibly because it is underreported? The people I know who have been racially abused have never reported it to the police or contacted a solicitor. Listening to the experiences of those who do report it I am not surprised. It doesn't mean that it doesn't exist and on a large scale.

Sexual assaults have traditionally gone under-reported. It doesn't mean they didn't happen.

I don't know what you do for a job, what the access point is and what sort of things people come to you for, but your "evidence" doesn't say much compared to the evidence that is put forward by those who actually have direct experience of this.

 

[pbsmooth]

and of course if the BBC don't report it... they're accused of being racist

 

[ska invita]

I saw no racism, nor any hint of it.

Great anecdote

 

[ska invita]

its not just online abuse, people are sharing stories of random racist attacks last night off the back of the football

 

[tony.c]

 

[Ax^]

hmm

I do think a lot of the online stuff is malicious foreign actors, as Southgate seemed to suggest.

For the opposite to be true, you would have to make the case that England has, in a very short period of time, become dramatically more racist to the extent that people view it as perfectly legitimate to subject each other to the most vile abuse conceivable.

Maybe that is what has happened but it certainly doesn't seem to be mirrored by "real world" developments.

not sure it ever went away just the view of it being acceptable faded, and seeming as we had more than one type of organisation like the FLA
and wankers like T Robinson making headline for years its never really left football

maybe saying it was right to BOO the players for making a symbol against racism embolded the fuckers.
and they be the first to buy into make a hostile enviorment for other fans

 

[Steel Icarus]

This looks like supporters perhaps ill-advisedly smacking other supporters trying to storm in, it's unpleasant but it's not unprovoked leatherings happening here

 

[hitmouse]

I have advised people from across Southwark and Lambeth as an adviser for around 10 years now. In that time, I have seen hundreds of matters and they are largely about employment, benefits, housing and immigration - these are the real injustices that people have trouble with.

In South London, at least, we see very little sign of any problem with racism - people certainly aren't seeking legal advice about it.

I have seen two cases that involved racial discrimination - one featured white people, the other did not. In 10 years...

I feel like this shows that people aren't seeking legal advice about racism more than it shows that racism isn't a problem.

I do think a lot of the online stuff is malicious foreign actors, as Southgate seemed to suggest.

For the opposite to be true, you would have to make the case that England has, in a very short period of time, become dramatically more racist to the extent that people view it as perfectly legitimate to subject each other to the most vile abuse conceivable.

Maybe that is what has happened but it certainly doesn't seem to be mirrored by "real world" developments.

I hate those bloody malicious foreigners with their racism. Anyway, I think it's possible to make the case that people in an anonymous environment with no expectation of consequences might behave differently to how they do in "real world" environments?

 

[editor]

Just fucking look at it

 

[editor]

Drop in the ocean, I expect

Twitter deletes 1,000 tweets amid ‘racist abuse of England players’

Twitter say they deleted more than 1,000 Tweets and condemned “abhorrent racist abuse directed at England players” after the Euros defeat to Italy last night.

www.standard.co.uk

And Facebook being as useless as ever

Facebook and Twitter under fire after England soccer players face racial abuse online

Facebook and Twitter say they acted quickly to remove posts and accounts hurling racist abuse at Black England players.

www.cnbc.com

 

[Diamond]

I'm cynical enough to think it feeds an established narrative and that sells clicks on an ongoing basis.

Legacy media then perpetuates the nonsense story, as does BBC online. And so it continues, week-on-week sprouting endless stories that create division and national self-loathing. All created out of thin air, completely free.

Yes, I suspect there is a lot that going on as well. Commentators also out-competing each other to frame the other side in an ever worse light doesn't help much either.

This tweet was flagged to me recently that I thought was also quite interesting:

 

[killer b]

This looks like supporters perhaps ill-advisedly smacking other supporters trying to storm in, it's unpleasant but it's not unprovoked leatherings happening here

when I used to jump the fence at glastonbury the ticket holders used to give us a hand over.

 

[Diamond]

Do you think that's possibly because it is underreported? The people I know who have been racially abused have never reported it to the police or contacted a solicitor. Listening to the experiences of those who do report it I am not surprised. It doesn't mean that it doesn't exist and on a large scale.

Sexual assaults have traditionally gone under-reported. It doesn't mean they didn't happen.

I don't know what you do for a job, what the access point is and what sort of things people come to you for, but your "evidence" doesn't say much compared to the evidence that is put forward by those who actually have direct experience of this.

Yes, I have wondered about underreporting too but it would have to be a remarkably far-reaching phenomenon if so.

My day job is in tech but my background is in law and I advise pro bono as I have throughout my legal career on a regular basis at an advice clinic. This advice clinic essentially says "come to us if you think you have a problem and we will tell you whether we can help". That means that probably 50%+ of our cases are things that we can't help with (as there is no legal issue there) who we turn away. What that also means is that we also see every single person who can be bothered to come to us of an evening and therefore get a very wide aperture view on the problems that people have in their lives, both legal and non or sub-legal, in Southwark, Lambeth and sometimes farther afield.

What has also been suggested to me is that black people in particular have a special distrust of authority that makes them unlikely to seek legal advice of any kind at all. That has always struck me as an odd argument given that probably 40-50% of our clients are black and are more than happy to come to us to discuss housing, immigration, benefits employment etc...

 

[Diamond]

I feel like this shows that people aren't seeking legal advice about racism more than it shows that racism isn't a problem.

I hate those bloody malicious foreigners with their racism. Anyway, I think it's possible to make the case that people in an anonymous environment with no expectation of consequences might behave differently to how they do in "real world" environments?

Couldn't agree more with that second point. I've been banging the drum for the online disinhibition effect for what feels like years now but no-one I ever talk with about it seems much interested. It seems like an abundantly logical thing to me:

Online disinhibition effect - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[ska invita]

Legacy media then perpetuates the nonsense story, as does BBC online.

Be clear: what is the "nonsense story" here?

 

[Diamond]

These are gate bargers being beaten up by EDL lot who had tickets.

Not a pretty story all round.

But I suspect not quite what you think it is.

At the end - a group of them are yelling at the stewards to "do their fucking job" - i.e. not let bargers through.

 

[Storm Fox]

This looks like supporters perhaps ill-advisedly smacking other supporters trying to storm in, it's unpleasant but it's not unprovoked leatherings happening here

So ABH is no longer an offence, that's good to know.

 

[Diamond]

All politicians are wankers

As are we all

 

[klang]

As are we all

you might be. I'm not.

 

[hitmouse]

Yes, I have wondered about underreporting too but it would have to be a remarkably far-reaching phenomenon if so.

My day job is in tech but my background is in law and I advise pro bono as I have throughout my legal career on a regular basis at an advice clinic. This advice clinic essentially says "come to us if you think you have a problem and we will tell you whether we can help". That means that probably 50%+ of our cases are things that we can't help with (as there is no legal issue there) who we turn away. What that also means is that we also see every single person who can be bothered to come to us of an evening and therefore get a very wide aperture view on the problems that people have in their lives, both legal and non or sub-legal, in Southwark, Lambeth and sometimes farther afield.

What has also been suggested to me is that black people in particular have a special distrust of authority that makes them unlikely to seek legal advice of any kind at all. That has always struck me as an odd argument given that probably 40-50% of our clients are black and are more than happy to come to us to discuss housing, immigration, benefits employment etc...

For comparison purposes, how often would you say you've been getting people coming in to report stuff like sexism or homophobia?

Couldn't agree more with that second point. I've been banging the drum for the online disinhibition effect for what feels like years now but no-one I ever talk with about it seems much interested. It seems like an abundantly logical thing to me:

Online disinhibition effect - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I mean, I'm glad if we're in agreement, but if the online disinhibition effect explains a lot of the abuse, then I'm not sure why you also need malicious foreigh actors as an additional explanation? Occam's razor and all that?

 

[panpete]

This can not and must not be swept under the carpet. There has been a horrendous outpouring of racism directed at the players after the Euro final. What is the fucking matter with them?

This is just horrific

Fan violence the only thing that disgraces England in defeat

England lost on penalties, but the only tarnishing display was the actions of the fans who tore up the city and forced entry into Wembley without tickets

www.independent.co.uk

Fan knocked out in Leicester Square as England supporters fight each other

A Three Lions' fan was knocked out as England supporters clashed in Leicester Square, London, during the tense Euro 2020 final on Sunday night that saw England lose 3-2 on penalties to Italy

www.mirror.co.uk

*and yes, other teams have racist fans too, but let's talk about what's happened on the biggest stage in the last 24 hours.

Can't see first video, terrible.