England fans: the racism and the violence
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Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
I think you've conflated loads of quite different things here.
As for being swept under the carpet it's the lead news story with comments from the Royals, Johnson, Starmer, the FA and the manager/players/football commentariat
editor
hiraethified
Yes it is. For today. But the boo-boys won't be going away, neither will the racist abuse and an indifferent government and spineless football authorities won't do much to get in their way.
England has got a fucking huge problem with racism.
the posher the sport the better they treat their fans. tennis fans are the peers, or even superiors of the lawn tennis association, so they arent gonna fleece them. football clubs, on the other hand, are owned by people who see fans as their social inferiors, so they treat them like scum.
its not ironic, its how it is all over.
Steel Icarus
all I want in life's a little bit of love
Yep. Like most places. It's shit. How would you tackle it?
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
I wish all this shit was just reset. I'm so fucking sick of cunts like this. They're not just at football, this fucking moron mentality is all too prevalent in our society.
Knowing that pricks like this are all upset and angry today is a silver lining to the cloud of England losing yesterday. I only wish they'd explode, literally, on their own, instead of taking their anger out on innocent people. Most of them are old men too. Pathetic, sad little wankers.
Knowing that pricks like this are all upset and angry today is a silver lining to the cloud of England losing yesterday. I only wish they'd explode, literally, on their own, instead of taking their anger out on innocent people. Most of them are old men too. Pathetic, sad little wankers.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I did engage with the part of your post I was interested in - the intimation that the racism we've seen will harm England's chances of hosting the 2030 World Cup.
There's not much to say about the poor security is there? I mean, nobody could seriously argue that it wasn't piss poor.
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Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
It's just got a huge problem with thick, arrogant, knuckle dragging twats in general tbf.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
Tech giants have got a clear responsibility to identify, ban and prevent racists using social media to spew filth. If they won't then the Government should have a role in forcing them to.
Wembley, the cops and the FA are responsible for stopping people entering their overpriced grounds without a ticket.
'Yob culture' however is a very loaded term and often used by Daily Mail types in their campaign of hate towards working class people: especially when they have the temerity to enjoy themselves. There was plenty of that type of sneering yesterday
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
What about fuckwit culture? Is that an acceptable term for you? That cuts across all class divides.
Far be it from me to side with the old bill on anything but say they policed it properly yesterday and batoned a few of these wankers there'd be plenty of 'oh the police are so violent, it's just working class people having fun and being a bit rowdy.'
It's not just violence. It's abuse, homophobic chants, racism etc. It's not just at football either. As I said, I think this is just something in our culture and it cuts across class divides.
Dystopiary
Left lyrics in the practice room
Gabby Logan calling out a Tory MP:
people always get in to wembley without tickets - you just don't see it and it isn't shared so freely.
but this is why I can't get behind England despite being a football fan. there is undeniably a right-wing, racist, yobbish element that attaches itself to England more so than any club team.
but this is why I can't get behind England despite being a football fan. there is undeniably a right-wing, racist, yobbish element that attaches itself to England more so than any club team.
klang
klang
if by 'our culture' you mean the UK I'll have to disagree with you. Abuse and racism doesn't know borders, it's a problem everywhere, it's a global culture.
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
Yep, all topped up with cunts like that MP. This country is rotten.
brogdale
Coming to terms with late onset Anarchism
Yep, the neoliberal ideal of minimum wage, un/under-trained, precarious employment has its limits when it comes to safely running world-class events.
MrCurry
differently unable
Is it fundamentally any different to the way in which Brexit enabled the racist underbelly to emerge in a flurry of “we voted for you fucking foreigners to go home” hate crime attacks the length and breadth of the country? Racism and xenophobia bubbling under in society doesn’t need much of a catalyst to be shown openly, and thank god it gets slapped down and condemned whenever it does show its ugly face.
Unless we think racism in England is worse than in other European countries (or indeed in the rest of the U.K.), it makes no sense to label it an English problem IMHO. Condemning (and ideally arresting) the idiots who feel they’re empowered to be openly racist is absolutely right though.
Smokeandsteam
Working Class First
On your first point I fail to see how you can draw general conclusions about a culture based on a few hundred people trying to enter Wembley without a ticket.
On your second, I have got no idea what the homophobic chant point relates to but the racism was on social media. When I first went to football you would see people selling the NF paper outside the ground. You would hear racist chanting. Black players would get death threats in the post. Anti fascism involved directly confronting the racists. Have we solved the problem? Clearly not. But smearing large sections of society as 'knuckle draggers' takes us nowhere in doing so.
Doctor Carrot
Marxist Henchman
Of course. By our culture I mean there's a sense of pride in it. I guess I'm really talking about toxic masculinity but that's probably a topic for another thread.
I'm probably not talking much sense because I'm letting anger cloud my judgment. People like this just make me angry, more so over the past 18 months.
She has it concisely explained to her, with pertinent examples thanks to recent behaviour of fans, and yet completely ignores it. Tory knows best, better than the person speaking. Better than the lived experience of the victims of racism.
And so what if it is political? If you don't want politics in sport then don't have a sport minister. Don't have the FA. Spare us this dog whistle and hypocrisy. Racism is about power, politics is about power.
Hopefully this will be a watershed moment and things may start to change because I think many are now starting to see the rotten borough of Westminster for what it is.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
No I don't think that .What do you think they need to do in order to pay it serious attention?
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
Full marks for the first mention of Brexit,was never a problem before
ElizabethofYork
Old Crone
It's fucking shameful and I'm heartbroken about it.
andysays
Love and solidarity
Just for clarification, are you saying that England, the country, has a huge fucking problem with racism that other countries like, say, Scotland or Wales don't have, or are you saying that English football has a huge fucking problem with racism that, say, Scottish or Welsh football don't have, or something else not covered by either of those two?
And just to be clear, I'm asking as a non-football fan who identifies as British, but am Scottish rather than English if pushed to choose.
I went down to Wembley last night to see if I could blag my way in - there was a method, it didn't involve rushing the gates or any violence. I didn't get in but I was there on Wembley way for about 2 hours prior to kick off. It reminded me a bit of the Notting Hill Carnival. There were fans on top of kiosks, hanging from lamposts, dancing to music (which seemed to be everywhere). The atmosphere was one big party. It was a remarkably white crowd for London, which is not a very white place, but it was also mixed too - plenty of black and brown England fans too - I didn't see anything except high spirits and a really, really fun atmosphere. The people I remember going for it the most actually were a group of British Asians who were on excellent form.
I saw no racism, nor any hint of it.
I saw no racism, nor any hint of it.
I know people on this site really don't like me talking about my pro bono work but I'll have to bring it in here now.
I have advised people from across Southwark and Lambeth as an adviser for around 10 years now. In that time, I have seen hundreds of matters and they are largely about employment, benefits, housing and immigration - these are the real injustices that people have trouble with.
In South London, at least, we see very little sign of any problem with racism - people certainly aren't seeking legal advice about it.
I have seen two cases that involved racial discrimination - one featured white people, the other did not. In 10 years...
I do think a lot of the online stuff is malicious foreign actors, as Southgate seemed to suggest.
For the opposite to be true, you would have to make the case that England has, in a very short period of time, become dramatically more racist to the extent that people view it as perfectly legitimate to subject each other to the most vile abuse conceivable.
Maybe that is what has happened but it certainly doesn't seem to be mirrored by "real world" developments.
For the opposite to be true, you would have to make the case that England has, in a very short period of time, become dramatically more racist to the extent that people view it as perfectly legitimate to subject each other to the most vile abuse conceivable.
Maybe that is what has happened but it certainly doesn't seem to be mirrored by "real world" developments.
Athos
Well-Known Member
It seems naive not to realise that people of colour are disproportionately negatively affected in respect of those four categories - employment, benefits, housing, and immigration - by structural racism, even if you've not seen them affected by the less sophisticated racist thuggery often associated with a certain section of England fans. And that the two things are not unrelated.
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Ah those naughty foreigners. Maybe. Some of it. But the BNP and ukip votes, not to mention the Tory vote, suggests taloia anyway
Here's the thing - almost all of our clients are non-white. And pretty much all of them never mention racism.
It, frankly, has been a bit confusing over the last few years to see this spiking social concern on racism but little sign of people seeking actual legal advice on it.
The odd thing is that we have a brilliant law for all of this (in my view) - the Equality Act 2010. The tools are there and have been throughout the time that I've advised but I've only been called on to use them twice in ten years.
I should disclose though that the one instance of white on non-white racism that I have worked on is an ongoing case and the abuse does actually reference this Johnson cabinet.
So...there is that...to round out the picture
