sleaterkinney
Well-Known Member
Still sinking in. Are NZ not as good as they were?. They looked very disjointed, but still an incredible achievement. I can remember us getting pumped down there time and time again.
Domestic and European Rugby
- Thread starter Whagwan
- Start date
flypanam
Sausage to fortune
Nah NZ are a shadow of their former selves they don’t have some one like McCaw who can drag them to a result nor do they have the coaches or rugby vision but I reckon enter Schmidt soon.
All that doesn’t take away from the the fact we won a series in nz and have beaten them in 5 out of 8. That’s massive. Tbh I don’t expect much at the WC but right now we’re best in the world.
C’mon rest of Europe show the SH how rugby is played.
All that doesn’t take away from the the fact we won a series in nz and have beaten them in 5 out of 8. That’s massive. Tbh I don’t expect much at the WC but right now we’re best in the world.
C’mon rest of Europe show the SH how rugby is played.
felixthecat
are we there yet?
Bloody amazing from Ireland and England. For once its a good time to be a Northern Hemisphere rugby fan
Elpenor
a clown’s heart and a mandolin
Various reasons for the decline - pick all or any of these IMO - NZ have lost a golden generation of players and the replacements aren’t as good, they’re being refereed the same as other teams, they’ve been vulnerable against intense line speed and physicality for a while, the coach and captain aren’t up to it, they don’t have a settled centre partnership or back row, players are heading north to Europe or Japan where the money is earlier in their careers, their domestic super rugby tournament is a mess and not a good preparation for test rugby, and lastly perhaps most crucially other teams have caught up and improved their core skills.
All Blacks still have the ability to (and always will) burn you like no other team, 3 tries in 15 minutes can blow you away even when in a strong position like happened to Ireland in the first test. To beat them you generally need to score 30 points (which usually means 4 tries), take all your chances, and keep the boot firmly on the neck of the all blacks for the vast majority of the game to frustrate them.
Northern hemisphere rugby used to struggle to do this effectively especially the scoring enough points part (eg Warrenball - great at keeping it tight and competitive for the first 50-60 minutes but mainly scoring in 3 point increments and then blown away as the match became looser).
Ireland were a bit like that under Schmidt - very structured and a bit dull to watch - but it did the job in 2016 and 2018 against NZ. Farrell is embracing a more expansive style and Ireland look far better to watch.
Farrell has beaten NZ 7 times now, once coaching England in 2012, the Lions in 2017 and his 5 with Ireland. Sexton and Furlong are on 6 victories which must be a record for a NH player unless one of the French players in the 90s can beat that. One for the stattos to dig out!
All Blacks still have the ability to (and always will) burn you like no other team, 3 tries in 15 minutes can blow you away even when in a strong position like happened to Ireland in the first test. To beat them you generally need to score 30 points (which usually means 4 tries), take all your chances, and keep the boot firmly on the neck of the all blacks for the vast majority of the game to frustrate them.
Northern hemisphere rugby used to struggle to do this effectively especially the scoring enough points part (eg Warrenball - great at keeping it tight and competitive for the first 50-60 minutes but mainly scoring in 3 point increments and then blown away as the match became looser).
Ireland were a bit like that under Schmidt - very structured and a bit dull to watch - but it did the job in 2016 and 2018 against NZ. Farrell is embracing a more expansive style and Ireland look far better to watch.
Farrell has beaten NZ 7 times now, once coaching England in 2012, the Lions in 2017 and his 5 with Ireland. Sexton and Furlong are on 6 victories which must be a record for a NH player unless one of the French players in the 90s can beat that. One for the stattos to dig out!
bendeus
Bellend Tagline Generator
The whole game does. Jones has joined the lawsuit against WR. Not sure of anyone has read the interview in the Times that broke the story but it makes for grim, grim reading. Jones was a class player, is a class bloke and was/is a hero to many. To hear that the brain damage he's sustained is among the worst the doctor has ever seen is devastating. He's a young bloke, a father, a partner. He's utterly, utterly fucked and exclusively as a result of playing the game he loves.
You've got to wonder how many more high profile players of that generation are going to go the same way. North, Warburton, Sexton, Biggar, all with well-documented and serial concussion/head injuries, and I fear that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Jones' announcement has really made me wonder the degree to which rugby in its current form is sustainable and how responsible we are as the viewing public for the situation. We all like a dominant hit, an exocet clear out. These guys are literally putting their futures on the line for our entertainment and it's starting to make me feel very queasy, tbh.
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bendeus
Bellend Tagline Generator
I think only a massive reset of the game is going to save it (from lawsuits, unsustainable insurance costs, dwindling participation at youth level, dwindling crowds). The reset will need be so radical as to change the game as we know it, including an end to jackalling, no (or limited) tactical subs to reduce player bulk and tackling below the waist only.
bendeus
Bellend Tagline Generator
Sorry, E2A and this in the same year that James 'cubby' Davies, Wales International and brother of Jonathan, has had to retire due to his basically having a permanent migraine, issues with his vision and other neurological symptoms. He's barely 30, ffs.
Elpenor
a clown’s heart and a mandolin
It is grim and it’s the increased weight of players to blame I think, plus the multiple subs
Have there be any cases coming from the 7s circuit or is it all 15s.
They’re totally different sports - one is about space and one about contact - so I would expect not as many
Have there be any cases coming from the 7s circuit or is it all 15s.
They’re totally different sports - one is about space and one about contact - so I would expect not as many
bendeus
Bellend Tagline Generator
Good question and the answer is I don't know. Some of the earlier brain injuries were iirc due to the hit in the scrum - multiple (as in thousands) of low impact jarring injuries to the brains of players (Steve Thompson for one
) . The rest are surely due to bad tackles (possible in sevens) or the insanity at the ruck (far less so)It seems rugby is not the only one - NFL's settlement of a class action lawsuit that ran into the billions is one example, as well as, apparently, league and aussie rules.
Agree that player weight has an enormous bearing - these players are fucking huge - and that this could be addressed by changing the subs rule, but rugby needs to move away from the attritional, contact-seeking mess it's got itself into and that requires reform.
All I know is that my albeit dwindling pleasure in the game is not worth one destroyed life like Ryan Jones', let alone hundreds or possibly thousands. It's a disturbing fact that parents are better advised on safety grounds to encourage their kids into boxing rather than modern rugby and that pretty much says all we need to know about the current situation.
Elpenor
a clown’s heart and a mandolin
Good question and the answer is I don't know. Some of the earlier brain injuries were iirc due to the hit in the scrum - multiple (as in thousands) of low impact jarring injuries to the brains of players (Steve Thompson for one
It seems rugby is not the only one - NFL's settlement of a class action lawsuit that ran into the billions is one example, as well as, apparently, league and aussie rules.
Agree that player weight has an enormous bearing - these players are fucking huge - and that this could be addressed by changing the subs rule, but rugby needs to move away from the attritional, contact-seeking mess it's got itself into and that requires reform.
All I know is that my albeit dwindling pleasure in the game is not worth one destroyed life like Ryan Jones', let alone hundreds or possibly thousands. It's a disturbing fact that parents are better advised on safety grounds to encourage their kids into boxing rather than modern rugby and that pretty much says all we need to know about the current situation.
I debate this with a friend who coaches and for me fundamentally rugby is more about space than contact (he disagrees), however modern defensive and attacking strategies are all about dominating the contact aren’t they.
There was talk of reducing the numbers on the pitch to create more space. Trouble is it’s hard to do that without losing the front row fatties (speaking as a prop who grew a bit then went to the flank), but these days half the props are like bodybuilders.
I loved Ryan Jones as a player - came across as a nice guy: I wondered why he’d left the WRU job and now I know.
I suppose the next question is how long till the womens game has similar issues
bendeus
Bellend Tagline Generator
There was an interesting point made on Gwladrugby about the potential directions rugby could have taken in the period right after professionalisation. It questioned whether the bulking up and contact seeking was an inevitable result of that professionalisation or as the end result of a set of choices made by coaches. They could either have coached high skill backs adept at moving the ball away from the breakdown and at eluding contact or they could have just made the backs massive, enabling them to take contact and recycle over multiple phases in order to create the space for scoring. The argument went that the former was far harder than the latter and that teams such as SA, who rely on the bosh due to the sheer size of their players, saw little benefit in it, given the success of that strategy.
It begs the question of whether 'another world' in which seeking, finding and exploiting space can be reinstated as a desirable and dominant factor in the game. I don't personally know, tbh, but I know which version of that reality I'd prefer to be a viewer of, and which version would salve my conscience more as a viewer.
flypanam
Sausage to fortune
Of course you are right, the whole game needs to sort itself out. I've been following the posts from NZ about the game being ruined by red/yellow cards and needing common sense when dealing with head injuries, especially laughable when a clearly concussed Jeremy Loughman was sent back on the field in the first Maori game. Although NZRU later admitted they made a mistake.
I honestly don't know what the solution to the game is. I think a return to no more than five subs that can only come on in the event of injury might help but I agree with you about feeling quesy watching games knowing these men and women are damaging themselves for our entertainment. Maybe a red card for head contact and 3 month ban would help force the issue.
bendeus
Bellend Tagline Generator
The shrill cries from the SH about players essentially signing waivers that prevent any legal action if they receive life changing brain injuries are deeply, deeply unpleasant, I agree. But WR represents all unions, and the NH is also culpable - the recent debacle after Francis got sparked out being just one example.
I don't think cards are the answer without law changes, though. I read a suggestion that all jerseys should have a stripe mid chest. Tackle over the stripe (obvious) and you're off for ten.
bendeus
Bellend Tagline Generator
Exactly. And yes, theoretically it does. The aim should be to mitigate risk to the greatest extent possible while acknowledging that you can never do so totally. If the game has to change to ensure this then it has to do so.
bendeus
Bellend Tagline Generator
The jackal is a massive one as in terms of attack and defence it is an intervention that can turn the tide of a game. However, expecting a human being to be in that position while other enormous human beings crash into him or her in order to dislodge them from that position is ludicrous and surely can't be justified or continued. This is probably the aspect of the game I'd miss most but them's the breaks.
bendeus
Bellend Tagline Generator
This makes for sobering reading, not least the implication that there are currently no facilities that can cope with a six foot plus ex pro rugby player in their 40s with advanced dementia given the propensity of people with that condition to exhibit 'challenging behaviour'. Its emphasis on providing a care environment that is able to 'protect' players' families is, tbf, chilling.
www.theguardian.com
Rugby and dementia: if it thinks it is going away, the game is deluding itself | Michael Aylwin
We know from American football that a storm is heading rugby’s way. The governing bodies must act now rather than wait to see if a court of law finds them liable
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fucthest8
Cool people die horrible, preventable deaths.
Oh, good shout since I missed the NZ game. Will have a look at the date ...
fucthest8
Cool people die horrible, preventable deaths.
Bugger. I'm away that weekend for my bro's birthday.
gawkrodger
Well-Known Member
worrying times
Looks like Worcester are going to be declared bankrupt tomorrow (Monday) and my team, Wasps, don't appear to be far off
Looks like Worcester are going to be declared bankrupt tomorrow (Monday) and my team, Wasps, don't appear to be far off
Elpenor
a clown’s heart and a mandolin
Was a good day out, even though I missed the first ten minutes as I had to park a bit further away than usual. Think I’ll look into a Premier 15s season ticket for the Chiefs womens team £90 for 12 games, Mens tickets are £65 a match (cheaper if you stand but I find it too uncomfortable). Hopefully there’ll be a chance to see the Red Roses again down in the south west
Premiership season is due to start tomorrow but I expect the games will be cancelled due to the current events - the royal family clearly more important than player welfare
It looks like all the games after tonight are going ahead, with only Bristol-Bath and Sale-Northants this evening postponed. Hopefully I can find a decent stream, or I may see if my local is showing any of them, in the absence of any football.Premiership season is due to start tomorrow but I expect the games will be cancelled due to the current events - the royal family clearly more important than player welfare
gawkrodger
Well-Known Member
I'm a Wasps fan and we are in all types of shit. Also appears half the squad have had operations to replace their hands with dickfingers, the number of dropped balls yesterday
