Does the left understand the working class and how would they answer their concerns?

[Darios]

Just the job for revol.

 

[revol68]

Just the job for revol.

I'm not interestng in trying to stabilise capitalism, seems a bit too much like trying keep the tide out with a pitch fork.

 

[Darios]

I'm not interestng in trying to stabilise capitalism, seems a bit too much like trying keep the tide out with a pitch fork.

Gold. Just absolute gold.

 

[revol68]

Yes but who's going to do all the hard and often unpleasant work involved in keeping society going. Or getting it up and running again after the social breakdown that leads to revolution?

You never seem to want to answer this.

What do you want names or something?

Who feed the towns and cities in revolutionary Spain? Who fed the Communards? The answer to these questions have a habit of presenting themselves to those facing them. What is important is to maintain the revolutionary situation to stop the old forms reappearing.

It's incredible that people whinge about self important lefties, anarchists and socialists and yet these same people think these people should have blueprints for the micromanagement of a post capitalist society up their arse. Did the bougeois have the plans for the French republic drawn up before the dawning of the French revolution?

What we can have are principles and political analysis of situations that can hopefully allow us to avoid the pitfalls of the past whilst leaving the future enough space to flourish.

 

[revol68]

Gold. Just absolute gold.

So you think capitalism can be stabilised or you think the tide can be kept out with a pitch fork?

 

[CyberRose]

It's incredible that people whinge about self important lefties, anarchists and socialists and yet these same people think these people should have blueprints for the micromanagement of a post capitalist society up their arse.

Eh?! What is a political ideology if NOT a blueprint for society?!

 

[LLETSA]

What do you want names or something?

Who feed the towns and cities in revolutionary Spain? Who fed the Communards? The answer to these questions have a habit of presenting themselves to those facing them. What is important is to maintain the revolutionary situation to stop the old forms reappearing.

It's incredible that people whinge about self important lefties, anarchists and socialists and yet these same people think these people should have blueprints for the micromanagement of a post capitalist society up their arse. Did the bougeois have the plans for the French republic drawn up before the dawning of the French revolution?

What we can have are principles and political analysis of situations that can hopefully allow us to avoid the pitfalls of the past whilst leaving the future enough space to flourish.

As somebody has already asked, what happened to the Spanish revolution? Where are the communards now? In any case, what they did had very little to do with the kind of thing you appear to be advocating on here.

Are you trying to suggest that a revolutionary situation could be maintained indefinitely? Amidst a population in which the revolution's supporters would likely be exhausted and its many, many enemies within and without regrouping?

All you offer is a version of revolution that has never happened anywhere and the vain notion that 'It'll be all right on the night.'

 

[8ball]

Eh?! What is a political ideology if NOT a blueprint for society?!

Blueprints can vary in detail.

Capitalism is pretty muddy when it comes down to the detail (and always fails, incidentally, and gets bailed out by the State).

Do you have a problem with capitalism just being a set of rules and the rest being ad hoc, or does the problem only present itself when concerned with alternatives to the current shambles?

 

[revol68]

Sorry, I have to disagree with you. And I suspect a lot of people who value security for themselves and their families would too. They would want to know where such security comes from before agreeing to a transition to a new kind of society (and, no, capitalism doesn't necessarily provide this at present).

Jealousy is a fairly basic human emotion though. How would you deal with this?

What are you on about, I'm saying that what is needed in the here and now to provide some security for people and their families is a rejection of sectionalism and scapegoating. I'm not talking about an insurrection for communism, simply not allowing ourselves to be further weakened, as those wankers who bitch about greedy tube workers, sponging asylum seekers and those on the dole. I mean look at the shit I copped for simply saying I've just signed on and am not so bothered about it over the summer if the weathers good, all of a sudden I'm guilty of stealing food from working families tables and have turned into some 'career dolite' (not that I give a fuck about those that are, again fair fucks to them if they manage to get by on it).

Jealousy is a basic human emotion, so what, doesn't make it any less pathetic when it involves some sad net curtain twitching muppet complaining about their neighbour doing the double or getting a pay rise. Anyone who had any sort of dignity and pride wouldn't begrudge their neighbour they'd demand the same for themselves. Christ I don't even begrudge footballers their fortunes, fair fucks to them I say, it's not like I'd be living it up like that if it wasn't for them, and frankly I'm not too bothered about fast cars and tacky clothes.

 

[revol68]

As somebody has already asked, what happened to the Spanish revolution? Where are the communards now? In any case, what they did had very little to do with the kind of thing you appear to be advocating on here.

Are you trying to suggest that a revolutionary situation could be maintained indefinitely? Amidst a population in which the revolution's supporters would likely be exhausted and its many, many enemies within and without regrouping?

All you offer is a version of revolution that has never happened anywhere and the vain notion that 'It'll be all right on the night.'

Sorry did the communards fail because of being unable to feed themselves, or run Paris? Did revolutionary Spain fail because of the inability of the collectives and communes to feed people or clean toliets? No they didn't so my point stands.

Both of them were crushed under weight of arms not any primordial flaw in workers control and communism.

What out of interest is your vision for the future, how do you see us getting beyond capitalism?

 

[revol68]

Eh?! What is a political ideology if NOT a blueprint for society?!

of course it isn't you daft fuck, it's a wide set of principles that are meant to be reflexive to specific circumstances.

the very notion of some perfect blueprint that can be put in place and work is little more than the residue of Theological thinking.

 

[Carousel]

Capitalism is pretty muddy when it comes down to the detail (and always fails, incidentally, and gets bailed out by the State).

It's not a failure. That's what's meant to happen. Ha ha. I'm pulling your leg. There's no such thing as capitalism. It's a phantom.

 

[LLETSA]

What are you on about, I'm saying that what is needed in the here and now to provide some security for people and their families is a rejection of sectionalism and scapegoating. I'm not talking about an insurrection for communism, simply not allowing ourselves to be further weakened, as those wankers who bitch about greedy tube workers, sponging asylum seekers and those on the dole. I mean look at the shit I copped for simply saying I've just signed on and am not so bothered about it over the summer if the weathers good, all of a sudden I'm guilty of stealing food from working families tables and have turned into some 'career dolite' (not that I give a fuck about those that are, again fair fucks to them if they manage to get by on it).

Calling you a career dolie wan't a moral judgement. I was merely pointing out that choosing not to work is a luxury many can't afford, and probably isn't the best position from which to argue your utopian politics. In fact, most people would probably think you're a know-nothing twat who has way too much time on his hands.

 

[revol68]

Calling you a career dolie wan't a moral judgement. I was merely pointing out that choosing not to work is a luxury many can't afford, and probably isn't the best position from which to argue your utopian politics. In fact, most people would probably think you're a know-nothing twat who has way too much time on his hands.

I only signed on last week you nob, so calling me a career dolie was just stupid in every sense, nor do I imagine not working is something most people can afford to do infact it isn't something I can afford to do for more than three months and that's me with no mortgage or dependents. As for being on the dole not being a place from whoich to criticise capitalism and expect people to take you seriously, are you suggesting that people on the dole aren't fit to comment on capitalism, or that they are some different species from the rest of the working class?

Again I ask you

What out of interest is your vision for the future, how do you see us getting beyond capitalism?

Have you got any sort of answer or are you just a less consistent and witty version of Carousel?

 

[LLETSA]

Sorry did the communards fail because of being unable to feed themselves, or run Paris? Did revolutionary Spain fail because of the inability of the collectives and communes to feed people or clean toliets? No they didn't so my point stands.

Both of them were crushed under weight of arms not any primordial flaw in workers control and communism.

What out of interest is your vision for the future, how do you see us getting beyond capitalism?

What we don't know is what would have happened had they survived. The kind of thing you're suggesting has never existed in an ongoing way. The only thing you can be sure of is that the situation would have changed. In any case, as I said, what they did didn't have much to do with what you seem to be advocating.

I don't know if we will 'get beyond' capitalism, but I do have a shrewd idea of what will not work. It's hardly rocket science.

 

[LLETSA]

It's not a failure. That's what's meant to happen. Ha ha. I'm pulling your leg. There's no such thing as capitalism. It's a phantom.

Yes, yes, you've said so about a billion times.

(Pats Carousel on the head. The silly, silly man.)

 

[revol68]

What we don't know is what would have happened had they survived. The kind of thing you're suggesting has never existed in an ongoing way. The only thing you can be sure of is that the situation would have changed. In any case, as I said, what they did didn't have much to do with what you seem to be advocating.

I don't know if we will 'get beyond' capitalism, but I do have a shrewd idea of what will not work. It's hardly rocket science.

Well see LLETSa that thing with new things and the future they are different than what happened in the past.

As for knowing what won't work, well bully for you, I'm sure I could point to lots of shit that won't work tpp, the fact is that I also see things that offer some hope, that at least point beyond capitalism and wage slavery and those are the moments that did not fail under their own weight but had to be crushed.

You are just a miserable old bastard, a kind of Carousel but without the humour. You berate everyone else for not having the answers yet you can't even take a stab at giving some yourself.

 

[LLETSA]

I only signed on last week you nob, so calling me a career dolie was just stupid in every sense, nor do I imagine not working is something most people can afford to do infact it isn't something I can afford to do for more than three months and that's me with no mortgage or dependents. As for being on the dole not being a place from whoich to criticise capitalism and expect people to take you seriously, are you suggesting that people on the dole aren't fit to comment on capitalism, or that they are some different species from the rest of the working class?

I called you a career dolie because you were trumpeting yourself as somebody who can get away with signing on and not working.

I'm not saying people on the dole can't comment on capitalism, I'm saying that quite a lot of people who do have to work will not take kindly to a ranty little runt who sits on his arse all day preaching utopia at them.

 

[LLETSA]

Well see LLETSa that thing with new things and the future they are different than what happened in the past.

As for knowing what won't work, well bully for you, I'm sure I could point to lots of shit that won't work tpp, the fact is that I also see things that offer some hope, that at least point beyond capitalism and wage slavery and those are the moments that did not fail under their own weight but had to be crushed.

You are just a miserable old bastard, a kind of Carousel but without the humour. You berate everyone else for not having the answers yet you can't even take a stab at giving some yourself.

In what way does foaming about on here offer hope?

 

[revol68]

I called you a career dolie because you were trumpeting yourself as somebody who can get away with signing on and not working.

I'm not saying people on the dole can't comment on capitalism, I'm saying that quite a lot of people who do have to work will not take kindly to a ranty little runt who sits on his arse all day preaching utopia at them.

Right so despite the fact I only just signed on, said that I'd only be able to avoid work for the summer with the aid of a medical trial, I have somehow morphed into some sort of JSA trustafarian because I said I'm not really that worried about being on the dole this summer if the weather is good?

So basically I can comment on capitalism but as soon as it is in disagreement with you (who doesn't seem to have any actual politics beyond moaning) my unemployed status magically becomes relevant, hmm? Sounds to me like some sort of really bad identity politics for 'working people'.

My ABC of class struggle suggests that the employed and unemployed have it in their common interests to support each other struggles not only because better benefits means workers can't so easily be pushed around and shat upon but because shocl horror many of the employed will be unemployed at some stage and vice versa. Now I might have read quite a few books but that one was obvious to me from no age simply from growing up in a working class household.

 

[revol68]

In what way does foaming about on here offer hope?

I wasn't suggesting posting on here did, I was suggesting that there are many moments from working class history and struggle that offer hope, or atleast some sort of rough guide as to how to go about resisting capitalism.

I'd be interested in knowing what movements or moments you take some inspiration/ hope from.

 

[LLETSA]

Right so despite the fact I only just signed on, said that I'd only be able to avoid work for the summer with the aid of a medical trial, I have somehow morphed into some sort of JSA trustafarian because I said I'm not really that worried about being on the dole this summer if the weather is good?

So basically I can comment on capitalism but as soon as it is in disagreement with you (who doesn't seem to have any actual politics beyond moaning) my unemployed status magically becomes relevant, hmm? Sounds to me like some sort of really bad identity politics for 'working people'.

My ABC of class struggle suggests that the employed and unemployed have it in their common interests to support each other struggles not only because better benefits means workers can't so easily be pushed around and shat upon but because shocl horror many of the employed will be unemployed at some stage and vice versa. Now I might have read quite a few books but that one was obvious to me from no age simply from growing up in a working class household.

If you have to start a sentence with the word right, there should be a comma straight after it.

I haven't said you can't comment on capitalism. Comment away. I've said that you shouldn't bank on anybody listening.

 

[LLETSA]

I wasn't suggesting posting on here did, I was suggesting that there are many moments from working class history and struggle that offer hope, or atleast some sort of rough guide as to how to go about resisting capitalism.

I'd be interested in knowing what movements or moments you take some inspiration/ hope from.

These days I fnd it hard to answer that sort of question, mainly because past movements existed in times and places which are gone forever, and embodied the kind of optimism that arose in an era when there was more reason to be optimistic than there probably is now.

 

[revol68]

If you have to start a sentence with the word right, there should be a comma straight after it.

I haven't said you can't comment on capitalism. Comment away. I've said that you shouldn't bank on anybody listening.

Right, so you don't actually have a response.

Okay, so in what way does being on the dole mean that your thoughts on capitalism are less relevant? Now I might be wrong but I'd have imagined that the thoughts of those people at the sharp end of capitalism, would be very relevant.

Or don't I count as properly working class because I read books and have communist politics?

 

[Carousel]

These days I fnd it hard to answer that sort of question, mainly because past movements existed in times and places which are gone forever, and embodied the kind of optimism that arose in an era when there was more reason to be optimistic than there probably is now.

Bless. Tell us why there was more reason for optimism then LLETSA, it's time for you tell us your values.

 

[revol68]

These days I fnd it hard to answer that sort of question, mainly because past movements existed in times and places which are gone forever, and embodied the kind of optimism that arose in an era when there was more reason to be optimistic than there probably is now.

Right so the past is so different to the present that you can't see anything relevant, yet you expect us in the present to be able to lay out the future?

Like I said you are just a miserable fuck, like Carousel but less playful, witty or intelligent.

 

[Carousel]

Like I said you are just a miserable fuck, like Carousel but less playful, witty or intelligent.

Oh now that is mean and uncalled for. Why is it, the more one rants about lofty social principles the more belligerent they are as an individual? That's a rhetorical question. The answer is character armour.

 

[_pH_]

Your views don't count on the basis that you're pretty much clueless about reality, revol.

Hth

 

[LLETSA]

Right so the past is so different to the present that you can't see anything relevant, yet you expect us in the present to be able to lay out the future?

Like I said you are just a miserable fuck, like Carousel but less playful, witty or intelligent.

I don't expect you to 'lay out the future,' whatever that means. I just wondered if you'd thought about the obvious pitfalls in what you advocate.

Try to remember that comma after 'right', and stop trying to kiss Carousel.

 

[Carousel]

Oh now that's just going to wind him up.