Does the left understand the working class and how would they answer their concerns?

[CyberRose]

wtf? you're really not making any sense?

No no, he's finally telling us how he'd get people to do the unpopular jobs in his ideal society!

 

[_pH_]

The thing is revol, you quite clearly don't like the idea of capitalism to the extent that you're not prepared to participate in society as it is. Fair enough. But you're being subsidised by the hard work of those who are paying for you to stay on the dole. I agree with you, most people probably don't want to waste their lives working to enrich someone else but equally they're gonna be mightily pissed off with your attitude, that you can freeload off their efforts. You won't agree with this, I'm sure, but I believe it's true, and justified imo.

So if current society is so anathema to you, why don't you remove yourself from it entirely?

 

[revol68]

I agree with your last paragraph, but the first? Guilt stems from capitalism? Not from any sense of compassion? Or have I misread that?

Tell me what has guilt ever achieved, it's a pathetic self indulgent emotion. Does feeling guilty and not enjoying yourself help anyone else?

The working class need to get fucking greedier, dolite and the employed, instead of getting into bullshit games of who is most deserving etc.

 

[audiotech]

The point is, how on Earth do you deal with people like yourself who refuse to do work? What makes you think that lazy people like yourself won't continue being lazy in your ideal society?

Lazy people?

People would like to see more leisure time to spend how they wish.

It's more likely that living without the "work ethic" of capitalism and it's religious mumbo jumbo, can only lead shurely to more inspiring work and no need then to "continue being lazy"?

 

[_pH_]

Tell me what has guilt ever achieved, it's a pathetic self indulgent emotion. Does feeling guilty and not enjoying yourself help anyone else?

The working class need to get fucking greedier, dolite and the employed, instead of getting into bullshit games of who is most deserving etc.

That's quite offensive really, calling people who feel guilty about inequality pathetic and inadequate. Besides, you can feel guilt and do something about it, AND do other things to enjoy yourself. It's not as polarized as you seem to think.

Why do the working class need to get greedier? Is it because they're more deserving? How have you decided that, if it's a 'bullshit game'? If they're not more deserving then why are you so bothered about getting them a greater share?

 

[_pH_]

Lazy people?

People would like to see more leisure time to spend how they wish.

It's more likely that living without the "work ethic" of capitalism and it's religious mumbo jumbo, can only lead shurely to more inspiring work and no need then to "continue being lazy"?

Apart from cleaning the bogs. And working at sewage farms. And emptying the bins. Is this inspiring work?

 

[revol68]

The thing is revol, you quite clearly don't like the idea of capitalism to the extent that you're not prepared to participate in society as it is. Fair enough. But you're being subsidised by the hard work of those who are paying for you to stay on the dole. I agree with you, most people probably don't want to waste their lives working to enrich someone else but equally they're gonna be mightily pissed off with your attitude, that you can freeload off their efforts. You won't agree with this, I'm sure, but I believe it's true, and justified imo.

So if current society is so anathema to you, why don't you remove yourself from it entirely?

Where did youse twats get the impression that making the most of one summer on the dole equals wishing to make a career out of it (not that I have any problem with those that do, more pwoer to them)? Where did I say I don't want to participate in society, how would that even be possible?

As for free loading, the sooner the working class stops worrying about people getting by without working and concentrates on bettering their own situation the better. I was brought up to think fair fucks to anyone doing the double, I wasn't brought up to look enviously on my neighbours but rather to think, why shouldn't we all have that?

 

[DotCommunist]

The thing is revol, you quite clearly don't like the idea of capitalism to the extent that you're not prepared to participate in society as it is. Fair enough. But you're being subsidised by the hard work of those who are paying for you to stay on the dole. I agree with you, most people probably don't want to waste their lives working to enrich someone else but equally they're gonna be mightily pissed off with your attitude, that you can freeload off their efforts. You won't agree with this, I'm sure, but I believe it's true, and justified imo.

So if current society is so anathema to you, why don't you remove yourself from it entirely?

if he's done enough work he might be on contributions based y'know.

Just saying.

 

[revol68]

Apart from cleaning the bogs. And working at sewage farms. And emptying the bins. Is this inspiring work?

do you do any of those thing?

no yo don't so don't start lecturing others about them you twat.

All these problems can and will be dealt with once capitalism is gone, in the meantime I suggest you sop trying to make yourself feel better about your own role within capitalism by looking down on others and worry more about those higher up.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

But, you know, who will clean the toilets?

 

[_pH_]

Where did youse twats get the impression that making the most of one summer on the dole equals wishing to make a career out of it (not that I have any problem with those that do, more pwoer to them)? Where did I say I don't want to participate in society, how would that even be possible?

As for free loading, the sooner the working class stops worrying about people getting by without working and concentrates on bettering their own situation the better. I was brought up to think fair fucks to anyone doing the double, I wasn't brought up to look enviously on my neighbours but rather to think, why shouldn't we all have that?

Why are we 'twats'? Do you have to resort to insults yet again?

You don't want to work. We live in a capitalist society where work is expected (like it or not). There's not going to be any sort of revolution in your lifetime creating the sort of society you would like to see. So why not remove yourself from it? And yes it is possible not to be part of that society.

You may have been brought up to think that about people doing the double, but surely you realise that not everyone else agrees?

 

[revol68]

That's quite offensive really, calling people who feel guilty about inequality pathetic and inadequate. Besides, you can feel guilt and do something about it, AND do other things to enjoy yourself. It's not as polarized as you seem to think.

Why do the working class need to get greedier? Is it because they're more deserving? How have you decided that, if it's a 'bullshit game'? If they're not more deserving then why are you so bothered about getting them a greater share?

The working class need to get greedier in the sens eof demanding less work and more free time as well as access to the riches of the world.

And yes guilt is a pathetic emotion, I'm not saying it's one that can be avoided always but it's certainly not one to base politics on as it's generally a bit fucking patronising.

 

[_pH_]

if he's done enough work he might be on contributions based y'know.

Just saying.

Fair point.

 

[DotCommunist]

But, you know, who will clean the toilets?

Those grateful to have escaped a neckshotting.

 

[audiotech]

Apart from cleaning the bogs. And working at sewage farms. And emptying the bins. Is this inspiring work?

No, automated systems.

All that technology and the labour used for competition/war?

Use it socially?

I dream of a world of lazy sods.

 

[_pH_]

do you do any of those thing?

no yo don't so don't start lecturing others about them you twat.

No I don't at present, but yes I have done similar jobs (emptying bins etc.). But obviously you prefer to make assumptions about me. I started at the bottom, manual work, on the tools, worked my way up (working class bettering himself in your parlance, which is what you want isn't it? Of course your idea of betterment might be different, but I suspect for many it includes not having to empty bins.)

Oh, and I'm not looking down on anyone. Except you maybe. But carry on making assumptions.

 

[8ball]

What the left need to do:

Set up more lottery games - the more stupidly large the amounts the better. Ideally pay out in roubles but keep it quiet.

Ant & Dec to get their own channel.

Cheryl Cole to be promoted to Queen.

Regular public executions of a different demonised minority group each week.

 

[_pH_]

No, automated systems.

All that technology and the labour used for competition/war?

Use it socially?

I dream of a world of lazy sods.

Me too. But I suspect we're a hell of a long way off.

Who's gonna fix the automated bogs when they break down and need pumping out, that's what I wanna know

 

[revol68]

Why are we 'twats'? Do you have to resort to insults yet again?

You don't want to work. We live in a capitalist society where work is expected (like it or not). There's not going to be any sort of revolution in your lifetime creating the sort of society you would like to see. So why not remove yourself from it? And yes it is possible not to be part of that society.

You may have been brought up to think that about people doing the double, but surely you realise that not everyone else agrees?

Yes I don't want to work, neither do most people that I know who work. What I want and what I may have to do or not do are different things, although obviously I base my politics on what I want.

I don't want to remove myself form society, I want to remove capitalism, quite a difference.

I generally find that people who whinge about people on the double are either middle class tossers or working class people who like to think of themselves as better than other prole because they have internalised nice middle class values.

 

[CyberRose]

Lazy people?

People would like to see more leisure time to spend how they wish.

It's more likely that living without the "work ethic" of capitalism and it's religious mumbo jumbo, can only lead shurely to more inspiring work and no need then to "continue being lazy"?

Everyone would like to see more leisure time but the fact is, our leisure time is funded by working for it. Even revol's leisure time is funded by people working for it, as much as he fails to recognise that.

People will still need to work in a communist society, and the point people have been trying to make is, who will do the unsavoury work and how will society ensure this work is done?

 

[_pH_]

The working class need to get greedier in the sens eof demanding less work and more free time as well as access to the riches of the world.

Yep, I'd agree with that. But what happens when working class man A decides his share should be bigger than working class man B?

 

[revol68]

Everyone would like to see more leisure time but the fact is, our leisure time is funded by working for it. Even revol's leisure time is funded by people working for it, as much as he fails to recognise that.

People will still need to work in a communist society, and the point people have been trying to make is, who will do the unsavoury work and how will society ensure this work is done?

For someone so concerned about the left you don't have spout a lot of right wing shite.

Maybe if you took a week off on the sick and read some fucking books you'd not be such an ignorant twat, and I tell you what I would think it a fantastic use of my NI contributions.

 

[CyberRose]

Yes I don't want to work, neither do most people that I know who work. What I want and what I may have to do or not do are different things, although obviously I base my politics on what I want.

I don't want to remove myself form society, I want to remove capitalism, quite a difference.

It would make absolutely no difference whatsoever the political system we lived under - work will need doing no matter what. People will still have to work under communism just as much as they need to work under capitalism

You've offered no suggestions whatsoever as to how this might be achieved under communism, and considering the amount of books you've read on the subject it suggests communists simply do not have an answer to this problem...

 

[_pH_]

I don't want to remove myself form society, I want to remove capitalism, quite a difference.

Ok, so then we come back to how you're going to achieve that. And if we can't then why you don't opt out and live outside the capitalist system you despise.

 

[revol68]

Yep, I'd agree with that. But what happens when working class man A decides his share should be bigger than working class man B?

Sorry when did the working class get to cut the pie?

Working clas man B should kick the shit out the bourgeois until he gets a bigger slice to.

And if the bourgeois try and take man A's bigger slice away, man B should supprt man A.

Fuck me it's like The Ragged Trousered Philantrophists for the Internet generation on this thread.

 

[revol68]

People will still have to work under communism just as much as they need to work under capitalism

Really?

I'm guessing all the people presently employed in the financial sectors would be sitting on their holes eating grapes then?

 

[_pH_]

Sorry when did the working class get to cut the pie?

Working clas man B should kick the shit out the bourgeois until he gets a bigger slice to.

And if the bourgeois try and take man A's bigger slice away, man B should supprt man A.

Fuck me it's like The Ragged Trousered Philantrophists for the Internet generation on this thread.

It's called selfishness revol. In the real world, there is conflict between working class man A and working class man B. As you've pointed out numerous times, the working class are not a homogenous group, why do you think man A and man B will have exactly the same idea about what they think they're worth? And if they don't, how do get around this problem?

 

[CyberRose]

For someone so concerned about the left you don't have spout a lot of right wing shite.

I'm not concerned about the "left" one single bit! I hold them in nothing but contempt for their refusal to make headway into improving society instead choosing to hide behind dogmatic ideology. That's why I started this thread in the first place! My concerns are for the people of this country who, as you will agree, are shat on day in day out. We're one of the richest countries in the world, yet have summat like 16% poverty. That's my concerns and it pisses me off no end that the "left", who supposedly work to improve the lot of the ordinary man, refuse to help correct these problems cos they're too busy protesting about Palestine or for the rights of terrorists!

Maybe if you took a week off on the sick and read some fucking books you'd not be such an ignorant twat, and I tell you what I would think it a fantastic use of my NI contributions.

I don't need books to tell me what's going on in the real world because I live in it every day of my life...

 

[audiotech]

Everyone would like to see more leisure time but the fact is, our leisure time is funded by working for it. Even revol's leisure time is funded by people working for it, as much as he fails to recognise that.

People will still need to work in a communist society, and the point people have been trying to make is, who will do the unsavoury work and how will society ensure this work is done?

Most of the unsavoury work is pointless monotony and would be confined to some hobbyists and fetishists in a post-capitalist society.

The rest will be automated and will have long lasting parts.

 

[_pH_]

Really?

I'm guessing all the people presently employed in the financial sectors would be sitting on their holes eating grapes then?

How are you defining 'work' revol? Is it in the sense of 'paid job', or 'carrying out tasks that are necessary in any society'?

Genuine question, cos I think there's possibly an element of confusion here.