Does the left understand the working class and how would they answer their concerns?

[FreddyB]

What age are you? Such a world view makes some sense coming from a soul crushed by capitalism for 60 years, for you to hold the same outlook is utterly pathetic.

Carousel has point, if peoples expectations and desires are so utterly banal and worse than mediocre then should we be surprised when the ruling classes shovel shit down your throat and tell you it's truffles.

So the desire for a job that pays enough to live, somewhere to live and access to decent services is banal?

Wtf should we be after?

 

[revol68]

Actually, you won't. That's the sad thing.

Yeah maybe I'll be so crushed by the weight of capitalism and history that I'll lower my hopes and desires to a 40hr a week data input job with two weeks holiday.

If I ever get such a job and find myself blissfully content with it I hope someone puts a bullet in the back of my head cos I'll already be dead inside.

 

[LLETSA]

So the desire for a job that pays enough to live, somewhere to live and access to decent services is banal?

Wtf should we be after?

Here's a clue-it involves hugging horses.

 

[LLETSA]

Yeah maybe I'll be so crushed by the weight of capitalism and history that I'll lower my hopes and desires to a 40hr a week data input job with two weeks holiday.

If I ever get such a job and find myself blissfully content with it I hope someone puts a bullet in the back of my head cos I'll already be dead inside.

Isn't it time for you to go and hang about outside MacDonald's?

 

[revol68]

So the desire for a job that pays enough to live, somewhere to live and access to decent services is banal?

Wtf should we be after?

No wanting those things when you don't have them is grand, fuck I'd like it myself, as the end goal of your hopes, dreams and politics it's fucking pathetic and the only thing it illuminates is just how much the working class has had it's shit kicked in over the past 30 years.

What we should be after is to do away with work under capitalism and aim for a society in which human talent and potential is not wasted away expanding capital for the sake of capital, creating more and more useless work.

 

[the button]

Yeah maybe I'll be so crushed by the weight of capitalism and history that I'll lower my hopes and desires to a 40hr a week data input job with two weeks holiday.

If I ever get such a job and find myself blissfully content with it I hope someone puts a bullet in the back of my head cos I'll already be dead inside.

Inside every Marxist, a romantic struggling to get out.

I'd be pretty pissed off, too, like. I only do 35 hours a week, and I get way more holidays than that.

 

[revol68]

Isn't it time for you to go and hang about outside MacDonald's?

Why are they hiring?

 

[revol68]

Inside every Marxist, a romantic struggling to get out.

I'd be pretty pissed off, too, like. I only do 35 hours a week, and I get way more holidays than that.

I know I had it better than that in my software testing job, fexi time, up to 2 hour lunches, and 3 weeks holidays, still bored the shit out of me and the fact I was wasting my days making sure a fucking insurance company had it's records intact was deeply depressing.

 

[Carousel]

Are you seriously telling us that you've got so little control over your own circumstances you can't even attain the mediocrity of traditional household existence?

Exactly what I'm telling you. One day I'm earning this doing that the next I'm not, I need to do something else. Fucker of it is though that I'm not alone in finding myself needing to find something else to do and when there's more people looking than there are jobs to do I'm in fucking trouble, or maybe I'm lucky and I get something. Don't know yet.

So do you think a political movement is more likely to deliver results than relying on yourself as an individual? It's just that, you've not got what you want, fair enough. Where's the benefit in joining up with lots of others who can't get what they want either? You're just going to be a bad influence on each other. The idea you've got no special talents is a limiting belief, where do you get the idea you've an ability in social policy design?

Wtf should we be after?

I want to be a pirate next.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The Swp dont understand working class folk at all.

The question that needs to be asked is whether they want to understand. I suspect that, as vanguardists, they're really not that interested in the "cannon fodder".

 

[LLETSA]

I know I had it better than that in my software testing job, fexi time, up to 2 hour lunches, and 3 weeks holidays, still bored the shit out of me and the fact I was wasting my days making sure a fucking insurance company had it's records intact was deeply depressing.

If nothing else we'll always have revol to thank for the startling revelation that jobs are usually boring.

 

[Carousel]

The question that needs to be asked is whether they want to understand.

The question that needs to be asked is do the working class want to be understood.

 

[Darios]

I know I had it better than that in my software testing job, fexi time, up to 2 hour lunches, and 3 weeks holidays, still bored the shit out of me and the fact I was wasting my days making sure a fucking insurance company had it's records intact was deeply depressing.

Then why not go self-employed doing something you enjoy?

 

[revol68]

So do you think a political movement is more likely to deliver results than relying on yourself as an individual? It's just that, you've not got what you want, fair enough. Where's the benefit in joining up with lots of others who can't get what they want either? You're just going to be a bad influence on each other. The idea you've got no special talents is a limiting belief, where do you get the idea you've an ability in social policy design?

yeah if I simply wanted a 40 hr a week £20,000 a year job with 3 weeks holidays I'd have been best never having got interested in politics in the first place, infact as a clever little shit if I'd have not got interested in politics and simply sought a good career I'd probably have a much better job than, unfortunately my temperament and political curiosity pushed me towards questioning why the world works as it does and now I just simply couldn't be happy just doing some wanky job for £20,000 and leave it at that.

If all you want is some mediocre individual career success I'd suggest getting involved in left wing politics isn't the cleverest of moves.

 

[LLETSA]

yeah if I simply wanted a 40 hr a week £20,000 a year job with 3 weeks holidays I'd have been best never having got interested in politics in the first place, infact as a clever little shit if I'd have not got interested in politics and simply sought a good career I'd probably have a much better job than, unfortunately my temperament and political curiosity pushed me towards questioning why the world works as it does and now I just simply couldn't be happy just doing some wanky job for £20,000 and leave it at that.

If all you want is some mediocre individual career success I'd suggest getting involved in left wing politics isn't the cleverest of moves.

Just out of interest, what do you think the world of work is going to look like the day after the revolution?

 

[revol68]

Then why not go self-employed doing something you enjoy?

Like what? And I've no interest going self exploited putting in all the hours so what ever commodity I'm peddling will keep me from going under. I reckon I'd rather just have a job than that.

I'd rather cut of my own dick than have myself reek of the stench of the petite bourgeois.

It's capitalism is the problem, not this or that job.

 

[revol68]

Just out of interest, what do you think the world of work is going to look like the day after the revolution?

well for insurance, financial and sales company employees I'd imagine non existent.

 

[the button]

yeah if I simply wanted a 40 hr a week £20,000 a year job with 3 weeks holidays I'd have been best never having got interested in politics in the first place, infact as a clever little shit if I'd have not got interested in politics and simply sought a good career I'd probably have a much better job than, unfortunately my temperament and political curiosity pushed me towards questioning why the world works as it does and now I just simply couldn't be happy just doing some wanky job for £20,000 and leave it at that.

If all you want is some mediocre individual career success I'd suggest getting involved in left wing politics isn't the cleverest of moves.

What about doing some wanky job for £40,000?

No but seriously, though. If poiltical engagement breeds this kind of discontent, you can see why it's such a minority pursuit, tbh.

 

[Darios]

yeah if I simply wanted a 40 hr a week £20,000 a year job with 3 weeks holidays I'd have been best never having got interested in politics in the first place, infact as a clever little shit if I'd have not got interested in politics and simply sought a good career I'd probably have a much better job than, unfortunately my temperament and political curiosity pushed me towards questioning why the world works as it does and now I just simply couldn't be happy just doing some wanky job for £20,000 and leave it at that.

If all you want is some mediocre individual career success I'd suggest getting involved in left wing politics isn't the cleverest of moves.

My cousin, with no assistance, no education or money and starting from his own bedroom, started up a web design business about eight years ago. He worked bastard hard, built loads of fantastic sites, and managed to deliver great service support. He didn't fuck anyone over, or exploit anyone (other than himself). He just provided a great product and worked incessantly. He's going to be able to retire in two years at the age of 36.

 

[LLETSA]

well for insurance, financial and sales company employees I'd imagine non existent.

Tricky one, isn't it?

 

[Darios]

Like what? And I've no interest going self exploited putting in all the hours so what ever commodity I'm peddling will keep me from going under. I reckon I'd rather just have a job than that.

I'd rather cut of my own dick than have myself reek of the stench of the petite bourgeois.

It's capitalism is the problem, not this or that job.

Pathetic excuses.

 

[revol68]

My cousin, with no assistance, no education or money and starting from his own bedroom, started up a web design business about eight years ago. He worked bastard hard, built loads of fantastic sites, and managed to deliver great service support. He didn't fuck anyone over, or exploit anyone (other than himself). He just provided a great product and worked incessantly. He's going to be able to retire in two years at the age of 36.

i don't like web design and even if I did the market is totally saturated with loads of people all imagining they'll be able to do what your cousin did.

 

[ViolentPanda]

The question that needs to be asked is do the working class want to be understood.

I'm talking about a question that would need to be addressed to the SWP, you're talking about a question that would need to be addressed to the working class. The one has nothing to do with the other.

 

[Darios]

i don't like web design and even if I did the market is totally saturated with loads of people all imagining they'll be able to do what your cousin did.

More excuses. The market was *already* saturated when he started. It didn't stop him. And there are always new technologies to master and sell your skills on.

You could do exactly the same thing now as Web 2.0 technologies really start taking off. Instead of learning html and javascript you could learn Drupal and PHP. Drupal is starting to really catch on and you can now land yourself a job being paid £300 / day in London to develop it.

 

[FreddyB]

No wanting those things when you don't have them is grand, fuck I'd like it myself, as the end goal of your hopes, dreams and politics it's fucking pathetic and the only thing it illuminates is just how much the working class has had it's shit kicked in over the past 30 years.

What we should be after is to do away with work under capitalism and aim for a society in which human talent and potential is not wasted away expanding capital for the sake of capital, creating more and more useless work.

And that doesn't start by improving our position under capitalism, by exerting collective pressure to get more control?

Yes the working class has, in some ways, had the shit kicked out of it for 30 years especially in terms of organisations. That doesn't mean that we can't organise ourselves now, or tomorrow or whenever we like.

You may as well get a megaphone and stand in the street shouting "one solution, revolution" you'd entertain at least.

I think working towards a position where decent working and living conditions are the norm by starting with the assertion that we should be perfectly entitled to expect them is a good start.

As I've said most people in my experience want to know the bills are getting paid, their mates will be out on Saturday and they've two weeks in the sun booked.

I don't think you're going to get anywhere telling people they're banal for wanting that, that they don't fit your view of what the working class should be.

 

[revol68]

Pathetic excuses.

pathetic excuse for what?

did I ever say I wanted to be self employed?

I find the whole world of commerce disgusting, it taints everything with it's baseness and I have no interest in entangling myself in the morality of the accounts book further than I already need to.

This summer I'm going to get by on the dole and some shitty medical trial, spend my days out in the sun(hopefully) reading books, drinking, going to gigs and of course probably talking some shit on here, certainly seems more attractive to me than sitting in an office 9-5 for £6 an hour.

 

[LLETSA]

pathetic excuse for what?


This summer I'm going to get by on the dole and some shitty medical trial, spend my days out in the sun(hopefully) reading books, drinking, going to gigs and of course probably talking some shit on here, certainly seems more attractive to me than sitting in an office 9-5 for £6 an hour.

Fine. But what of those who keep everything running, including everything you rely on? You know-those you want to join you in your utopian fantasy?

 

[revol68]

And that doesn't start by improving our position under capitalism, by exerting collective pressure to get more control?

Yes the working class has, in some ways, had the shit kicked out of it for 30 years especially in terms of organisations. That doesn't mean that we can't organise ourselves now, or tomorrow or whenever we like.

You may as well get a megaphone and stand in the street shouting "one solution, revolution" you'd entertain at least.

I think working towards a position where decent working and living conditions are the norm by starting with the assertion that we should be perfectly entitled to expect them is a good start.

As I've said most people in my experience want to know the bills are getting paid, their mates will be out on Saturday and they've two weeks in the sun booked.

I don't think you're going to get anywhere telling people they're banal for wanting that, that they don't fit your view of what the working class should be.

Sorry why are you telling me this, didn't you read my response to your post about the Visteon workers?

Did you miss the fact that I said that the working class organising to protect and expand it's standard of living in the here and now is vital?

I never said people should be called banal for wanting better pay and conditions, I said it's banal if that is the end of your aspirations, if once you get that you no longer dream or want for anything else. I will however say quite explicitly that as a political goal it is disgustingly pathetic.

 

[the button]

Fine. But what of those who keep everything running, including everything you rely on? You know-those you want to join you in your utopian fantasy?

This is kind of what I was getting at. IMO, there are few more pernicious concepts in the leftist armoury than "false consciousness," which is where answers to this question often lead.

 

[LLETSA]

I never said people should be called banal for wanting better pay and conditions, I said it's banal if that is the end of your aspirations, if once you get that you no longer dream or want for anything else. I will however say quite explicitly that as a political goal it is disgustingly pathetic.

It might but-but it's far from clear what you're peddling as an alternative.