Does the left understand the working class and how would they answer their concerns?

[revol68]

Ok well when you're trying to win people round to your point of view don't forget to mention that to them!

Well generally I avoid engaging the lackeys and muppets and instead look to engage with those with a bit of savvy, who know that work is shite even if this is not politically articulated. It's from these people that change will come not some snivelling arselick or dull witted lackey who will only ever do anything when they can be assured of being in the majority.

The way you think working class people are above criticism is patronising shite.

 

[CyberRose]

Well generally I avoid engaging the lackeys and muppets and instead look to engage with those with a bit of savvy, who know that work is shite even if this is not politically articulated. It's from these people that change will come not some snivelling arselick or dull witted lackey who will only ever do anything when they can be assured of being in the majority.

The way you think working class people are above criticism is patronising shite.

I don't think the working class are above criticism, far from it, in fact I'd probably say the vast majority of people in this country (and the world) deserve criticism in some form or another.

However, this thread was supposed to be about winning people round to a more leftist outlook on society - that will only be achieved with "savvy", intelligence and a sound understanding of how and why people think.

Your "methods" are immature, idiotic and demonstrates a complete lack of political nous. You have no idea about people, what makes them tick, why they have the attitudes they do. You hide behind books thinking they have the answer and that because the book said so, the workers will rise up on their own accord, no need for you to do anything other than bitch bitch bitch until they day of the revolution.

If that provides you with a happy existence for the rest of your life then fair play, but if you think people will think you're talking sense and not a load of bollox that is completely alien to 99.99% of the population then something went seriously wrong in your life and you've cut yourself off completely from reality...

 

[revol68]

I don't think the working class are above criticism, far from it, in fact I'd probably say the vast majority of people in this country (and the world) deserve criticism in some form or another.

However, this thread was supposed to be about winning people round to a more leftist outlook on society - that will only be achieved with "savvy", intelligence and a sound understanding of how and why people think.

Your "methods" are immature, idiotic and demonstrates a complete lack of political nous. You have no idea about people, what makes them tick, why they have the attitudes they do. You hide behind books thinking they have the answer and that because the book said so, the workers will rise up on their own accord, no need for you to do anything other than bitch bitch bitch until they day of the revolution.

If that provides you with a happy existence for the rest of your life then fair play, but if you think people will think you're talking sense and not a load of bollox that is completely alien to 99.99% of the population then something went seriously wrong in your life and you've cut yourself off completely from reality...

This thread was nothing of the sort you deluded twat, it was just another chance for you to make snipey remarks about a strawman 'left' not understanding an equally invented homogenous 'working class'.

We never discussed what makes people tick or why they might think the way they do, what was being discussed was whether the 'work ethic' and all the other lackey crap that goes with it is bullshit or not. It is bullshit and it's a contempible attitude fostered in the working class in order to get them to identify witht their own alienation whilst policing those proles who refuse to knuckle under.

Do you think I talk to workmates like I talk to you on this thread? Of course not, because my workmates weren't pricks pretending to have had a lobotomy (well most of them weren't), they atleast come from a position of honesty, even if it is bullshit. You on the otherhand engage in political sniping and then when you get called on your shit and can't form an argument fall back on playing the 'the simple working folk will never buy that' card.

You are a dishonest cunt without politics or principle that you will stand behind.

 

[CyberRose]

You certainly do have a way with words don't you!?

 

[revol68]

You certainly do have a way with words don't you!?

And you have a fine line in dodging arguments.

How about you engage in discussion honestly with your own politics made explicit instead of hiding behind some imaginary 'man on the street'?

 

[CyberRose]

And you have a fine line in dodging arguments.

How about you engage in discussion honestly with your own politics made explicit instead of hiding behind some imaginary 'man on the street'?

Well 14 pages of calling people cunts whilst refusing to give an answer as to how people will come round to your way of thinking suggests you're a fine one to talk

Everytime you open your mouth you just push people further and further away from your way of thinking. I'm trying to decide whether your utter failure to convince people is down to a lack of understanding of how people think or whether you are just completely devoid of basic people skills?

 

[Carousel]

Hold on. He's already said he's not interested in persuading you. Indeed, he takes comfort from your disagreement. If you actually concurred, as far as he's concerned, it would undermine his credibility. Mate, revol's a proper communist. He dances to a different drum.

 

[Darios]

The whole point of socialism/communism is not to fetishise work or the working class as it is but rather to destroy it.

And yet lots of work will still need to be done, including a good deal of shit, tedious and possibly even alienating work.

 

[trevhagl]

It's the work ethic that needs fucking killed in the face.

Why would anyone with wit want to work, it'sa fucking mugs game sellingyour life away.

and i don't know where that poster got the idea the Queen was in the "workers" category!

 

[Carousel]

Yeah well. Being a "worker" isn't so much a question of selling your labour, more one of fitting into some stereotype of miserable cattle-like victimhood.

 

[LLETSA]

Yeah well. Being a "worker" isn't so much a question of selling your labour, more one of fitting into some stereotype of miserable cattle-like victimhood.

A bit like being a middle grade town hall clerk, who's read a bit of Nietzsche?

Your angst drips from every word you write.

 

[LLETSA]

Well 14 pages of calling people cunts whilst refusing to give an answer as to how people will come round to your way of thinking suggests you're a fine one to talk

History has already shown us that few people will ever come round to adopting Revol's standard leftie bollocks.

 

[Darios]

History has already shown us that few people will ever come round to adopting Revol's standard leftie bollocks.

One thing I've noted that consistently happens is how many working people can't stand to be lectured by someone on the dole.....

 

[treelover]

One thing I've noted that consistently happens is how many working people can't stand to be lectured by someone on the dole.....
Reply With Quote

Actually I think you will find most leftists, if not anarchists have very good jobs/professions indeed:teachers, lawyers, lecturers/academics, health workers, journos, social workers, , IT, etc

 

[Darios]

Actually I think you will find most leftists, if not anarchists have very good jobs/professions indeed:teachers, lawyers, health workers, journos, social workers, lecturers, IT, etc

I didn't say otherwise TL.

 

[albionism]

Not sure what is occurring in the U.K at the
moment, regarding what goes on on the front
pages of leftist newspapers, but over here in
Australia, the Socialist Alliance et el is not
winning any support by having Chavez and
Venezuela on the front page week in week
out. How can that possibly be relevant or
inspiring to your average person who has just
lost their job and is facing eviction? How can
it be of any concern to the steel workers here
who are losing their jobs in their 1000's?

 

[frogwoman]

Not sure what is occurring in the U.K at the
moment, regarding what goes on on the front
pages of leftist newspapers, but over here in
Australia, the Socialist Alliance et el is not
winning any support by having Chavez and
Venezuela on the front page week in week
out. How can that possibly be relevant or
inspiring to your average person who has just
lost their job and is facing eviction? How can
it be of any concern to the steel workers here
who are losing their jobs in their 1000's?

good point!

 

[FreddyB]

In my experience of people most would be happy with a secure job that doesn't fuck them up and pays enough to cover the bills, a 2 week holiday, beers at the weekend and doesn't take up more than 40hours a week.

I think the trick for the left, before any talk of revolution is to try and get people together to get what they want. To demonstrate in the here and now how by being united they can improve their position. It won't come from books, it's got to be relevant and recent examples. Visteon for example, not great in as much as everyone was fucked over but without their action, by themselves for themselves they'd have been more fucked over.

Work together and you can get what you want - not what someone tells you you want.

 

[albionism]

Venezuela may be inspiring to
those that lead the leftist parties,
who wish to emulate Chavez and
crave his level of power,
but if they want to win people over
they need more local news for local
people on their front pages.

 

[Carousel]

In my experience of people most would be happy with a secure job that doesn't fuck them up and pays enough to cover the bills, a 2 week holiday, beers at the weekend and doesn't take up more than 40hours a week.

Aim low to avoid disappointment. Those who aspire to mediocrity are doomed to achieve even less.

 

[FreddyB]

Aim low to avoid disappointment. Those who aspire to mediocrity are doomed to achieve even less.

It'd do for me mate, bit of security. Are you one of those high achieving types come to tell me that I should've tried harder at school?

 

[Carousel]

Nope. More that prevailing social institutions respond to only one of our desires, the desire to hide from blame. If we refuse to take responsibility for the situation in which we find ourselves and aspire to humble and unadventurous existences without risk or scandal then what we actually get is the current order.

 

[FreddyB]

What does that actually mean, what do I do with that nugget of wisdom?

 

[Carousel]

Oh I dunno. I suppose you could take comfort in the fact that we get the society we "deserve".

 

[FreddyB]

Is that all you've got, odd parables that amount to "you're in the shit and it's all your own fault".

 

[Carousel]

I've not said you're in the shit. In hiding from responsibility for the social institutions we inhabit we maintain the present order. Whether or not that puts you "in the shit" is up to you.

 

[TremulousTetra]

in my experience of people most would be happy with a secure job that doesn't fuck them up and pays enough to cover the bills, a 2 week holiday, beers at the weekend and doesn't take up more than 40hours a week.

I think the trick for the left, before any talk of revolution is to try and get people together to get what they want. To demonstrate in the here and now how by being united they can improve their position. It won't come from books, it's got to be relevant and recent examples. Visteon for example, not great in as much as everyone was fucked over but without their action, by themselves for themselves they'd have been more fucked over.

Work together and you can get what you want - not what someone tells you you want.

excellent, imho.

 

[treelover]

'in my experience of people most would be happy with a secure job that doesn't fuck them up and pays enough to cover the bills, a 2 week holiday, beers at the weekend and doesn't take up more than 40hours a week.'



@Freddy B, good post, in fact you basically described my late fathers view of life, and mine

 

[Carousel]

Well precisely. It's a personality trait. It defines to some degree the people drawn to left wing ideas, informs their "politics" and accounts for their situation and cycle of self defeat.

 

[FreddyB]

Why are you on a windup?

It's true you could criticise us for not sticking together to defend the mediocrity we enjoyed while we had it (those of us that did) and not working together to extend it, both to others who didn't and improving our own but how useful is that criticism?

Can we not take here and now as a starting point?