Does the left understand the working class and how would they answer their concerns?

[revol68]

Plymouth.

Too soon...





didn't stop me loling.

 

[treelover]

Jesuit, whats this, is the Button a priest?, surely not

 

[Quartz]

I think a massive problem for the left is that they don't seem to understand what the working classes actually want.

I've not waded through the 11 pages of this thread, and I think you have a good point here, but I'd suggest that the Left needs to go back a step beyond that and think about who the 'Working Classes' actually are. It's changed considerably since Marx's day. It seems to me that these days there are those who work - or want to work - and those who don't. In the former group, I'd include the Queen, the Prime Minister, and the street cleaner; in the latter, I'd include the unemployed indigent and the layabout trust-fundie, but not the retired. Inheritance tax means that wealth no longer passes down the generations as it once did, accumulating in fewer and fewer families. How and if the Left addresses this, I do not know, but I'm interested to see.

 

[revol68]

I've not waded through the 11 pages of this thread, and I think you have a good point here, but I'd suggest that the Left needs to go back a step beyond that and think about who the 'Working Classes' actually are. It's changed considerably since Marx's day. It seems to me that these days there are those who work - or want to work - and those who don't. In the former group, I'd include the Queen, the Prime Minister, and the street cleaner; in the latter, I'd include the unemployed indigent and the layabout trust-fundie, but not the retired. Inheritance tax means that wealth no longer passes down the generations as it once did, accumulating in fewer and fewer families. How and if the Left addresses this, I do not know, but I'm interested to see.

It's the work ethic that needs fucking killed in the face.

Why would anyone with wit want to work, it'sa fucking mugs game sellingyour life away.

 

[The39thStep]

'Having read a lot of books' doesn't necessarily equate to 'being clever'. You seem to have a vast knowledge of political theory, but seem clueless as to how you're going to persuade people to come across to your way of thinking. Seems a bit of a waste of time reading all those books to me, not that clever at all.

So very true, but for some the referencing the books they have read often seems to be a comfort blanket for what are essentially apolitical contributions.

 

[The39thStep]

I've not waded through the 11 pages of this thread, and I think you have a good point here, but I'd suggest that the Left needs to go back a step beyond that and think about who the 'Working Classes' actually are. It's changed considerably since Marx's day. It seems to me that these days there are those who work - or want to work - and those who don't. In the former group, I'd include the Queen, the Prime Minister, and the street cleaner; in the latter, I'd include the unemployed indigent and the layabout trust-fundie, but not the retired. Inheritance tax means that wealth no longer passes down the generations as it once did, accumulating in fewer and fewer families. How and if the Left addresses this, I do not know, but I'm interested to see.

The fact that under 10% of the UK population own over 50% of all wealth might suggest that you need to give a bit more thought to the above post.

 

[Carousel]

I am on the Left. But that doesnt mean i accept the current orthodoxies of the left on crime,immigration and public spending.

On all 3 of those issues the current left has lost its way and lost the respect of the people who should be its natural supporters.

So what current orthodxies of the left do you accept?

 

[Streathamite]

And revols point about peoples ideas changing in struggle etc et blooddy swp and anarcho wonderland etc looks more inspired by ideology and books than actual experience.

huh? As one who witnessed the phenomenal radicalisation of thousands of miners wives during the 84-85 strike, I can assure you that people's minds DO change through struggle, and permanently.
In fact, that's the only type of political awakening that's really solid, and reliable.

 

[Carousel]

Yup. Experience convinces people. Argument just closes them down. A permanent minority has a degree of objection to Halal butchers and people speaking in a foreign language on the street. You can't argue them out of their emotional response, but you can condition it out of them as a sort of Pavlovian effect embedded in class conflict. (And not the make believe world of protests, but actual material conflict in the course of life outside the official political milieu.)

 

[revol68]

huh? As one who witnessed the phenomenal radicalisation of thousands of miners wives during the 84-85 strike, I can assure you that people's minds DO change through struggle, and permanently.
In fact, that's the only type of political awakening that's really solid, and reliable.

Aye but tbaldwin is bascially just arguing that nothing will change and nothing ever will, peoples views are carved in stone, so it's pointless looking to changing them or having a political outlook that requires such a change. Neither argument, experience or struggle can change the views of the working class so the best we can do is to ape the populism of the day in the hope of being relevant, even if it means being irrelevant to the political ends you desire.

In short he's just a miserable, reactionary grumpy fuck.

 

[Quartz]

The fact that under 10% of the UK population own over 50% of all wealth might suggest that you need to give a bit more thought to the above post.

And what is the turnover in that 10%?

 

[CUMBRIANDRAGON]

Why should the left have anything to do with the working class?

 

[audiotech]

huh? As one who witnessed the phenomenal radicalisation of thousands of miners wives during the 84-85 strike, I can assure you that people's minds DO change through struggle, and permanently.
In fact, that's the only type of political awakening that's really solid, and reliable.

Some miners learned how to turn on the hoover for the first time too.

 

[Carousel]

Why should the left have anything to do with the working class?

Or visa versa for that matter. Post-war socialism has drifted away from the idea of the working class as the agent of change and into seeing the working class as a "disadvantaged group" in the bourgeois liberal sense. It's a kind of competition to see who can display the most victimhood, because they equate victimhood with honour. Indeed, being of the left is sometining of a passport to victimhood for the middle classes, it allows them to enter the realm of the oppressed.

 

[tbaldwin]

huh? As one who witnessed the phenomenal radicalisation of thousands of miners wives during the 84-85 strike, I can assure you that people's minds DO change through struggle, and permanently.
In fact, that's the only type of political awakening that's really solid, and reliable.

I am not really arguing with the point that people ideas change with experience andor influence. I am arguing that the cosy lefts view that as soon as people get to go on strike they all start to accept the wisdom of the orthodox lefts world view..
The miners strike did change a lot of miners views but not always in the way the orhtodox left would like.....Look how well Arthur Scargill and the SLP have done in former mining areas!
He used to be quite popular in those areas before the strike!

 

[tbaldwin]

So what current orthodxies of the left do you accept?

I accept that there needs to be a massive redistibution of power and wealth nationally and internationally.
I also accept that racism,hompohobia and sexism are shit and that we all need to look after the environment....

 

[Carousel]

Sorry, what makes you think those points of view are any more viable than ones you've rejected? (Besides, it's not just any redistribution of wealth is it, it's your special particular redistrbution of wealth).

 

[tbaldwin]

Sorry, what makes you think those points of view are any more viable than ones you've rejected?

My influences and experiences.
What makes you think you should question me?

 

[Carousel]

Exploration of the unknown. Any road up, redistribution and social liberalism could as well be Tory notions. There's nothing uniquely left wing in those positions. Tebbit, Letwin et al's meritocratic equality of opportunity ravings are as sincere, and as theoretically sound as Bevanite welfarism.

 

[CyberRose]

Why would anyone with wit want to work, it'sa fucking mugs game sellingyour life away.

So you don't work?! Everyone needs money...

 

[Carousel]

I was chatting to a chippy last night who fucking loves it. Learn a trade and never look back. To be "fair", revol is a proper communist and as such finds the whole idea of selling demeaning. Those who consider themselves of the left should at least accept their premise is based on communism as an ideal, even if they dilute its direct advocacy for the sake of practicality.

 

[revol68]

So you don't work?! Everyone needs money...

necessity and want are different things.

The work ethic is for mugs, like capital's version of when your ma wanted you to go to the shop to buy her cigs so she said she'd time you.

The whole point of socialism/communism is not to fetishise work or the working class as it is but rather to destroy it. This pride and honour in being an exploited worker shite is the product of confusing social democracy and Fabian wank with actual socialism/communism, that and of course the Soviet Union, which having failed to abolish alienating labour simply made alienated labour something to aspire to.

 

[revol68]

 

[CyberRose]

necessity and want are different things.

The work ethic is for mugs, like capital's version of when your ma wanted you to go to the shop to buy her cigs so she said she'd time you.

The whole point of socialism/communism is not to fetishise work or the working class as it is but rather to destroy it. This pride and honour in being an exploited worker shite is the product of confusing social democracy and Fabian wank with actual socialism/communism, that and of course the Soviet Union, which having failed to abolish alienating labour simply made alienated labour something to aspire to.

Would you be saying that if you had a job you enjoyed!?

 

[revol68]

Would you be saying that if you had a job you enjoyed!?

I imagine doing anything for 35 odd hours a week for 40 years would be detestable.

For someone who prides themselves on being more intune with the working class than all us clever clogs political types it seems odd that you imagine many working class people are in the previleged position of doing something they enjoy for a living.

Anyway regardless of enjoying a job or not, I think most people would enjoy it more if it wasn't for the benefit of capital, with all the restrictions and demands that entails, which of course would mean it wasn't a job.

 

[revol68]

I wonder if Cyberose has ever worked in a call centre, or spent two years testing programs for a cunting insurance company?

Would you like to tell me how anyone is meant to enjoy or take pride in those jobs other than being a retard, lackey or under the illusion that Insurance companies provide a valuable service to the world?

Still despite the fact I've never earned over £14,000 a year I'm still a middle class prick because my politics don't dovetail with populism and I read too many books.

 

[CyberRose]

I asked if you would still say that if you enjoyed your job, I didn't say you should enjoy your job. But I like the way you show utter contempt for anyone who doesn't have a "great" job but still takes pride in it. FWIW, I've had some pretty shit jobs on extremely low pay in my time and hated all of them, but many of the people I worked with didn't

 

[revol68]

I asked if you would still say that if you enjoyed your job, I didn't say you should enjoy your job. But I like the way you show utter contempt for anyone who doesn't have a "great" job but still takes pride in it. FWIW, I've had some pretty shit jobs on extremely low pay in my time and hated all of them, but many of the people I worked with didn't

I imagine you can take pride in aspects of what you do, like being a nurse, firefighter etc but that is different than taking pride in a 'job'.

And yes anyone who enjoys and finds it worthwhile working in a call centre pimping credit cards, insurance, or winning people back to BT is either an idiot or a lackey. Such people are scabs in waiting and even worse than that they tend to make it impossible for struggle to get off the ground in the first place.

 

[revol68]

Also I have contempt for anyone who takes pride in selling themselves, which is exactly what a job is. We might all be prostitutes being fucked by capital but some of us are looking at the stars, it's the cunts that kiss and make eye contact that are real whores.

FWIW, I've had some pretty shit jobs on extremely low pay in my time and hated all of them, but many of the people I worked with didn't

yes and many partners love their abusers, so what?

Do you think their attitude to shitty jobs and low pay is something that shouldn't be challenged? Do you think the working class can be a serious threat to capitalism whilst such attitudes persist?

 

[CyberRose]

Ok well when you're trying to win people round to your point of view don't forget to mention that to them!