Does the left understand the working class and how would they answer their concerns?

[Carousel]

The very notion that an individual can simply persuade a mass of people into accepting their politics is the most childish of bourgeois myths

Not even a bourgeois myth anymore. Professional persuaders concur with your take.

 

[CyberRose]

How many times have I pointed out to you that I don't see my role as persuading some passive working class but rather think sections of the working class will move towards such ideas through the necessity of struggle.

So to sum up your political beliefs you just want to sit on the fence and snipe at everything that goes wrong and bitch at people who don't share your view?

The very notion that an individual can simply persuade a mass of people into accepting their politics is the most childish of bourgeois myths

But works very well for the major parties (and the extreme right parties now it would seem)

Like I said I might not have a 12 step plan drawn up but I'd imagine at least having a clear understanding of what my politicsare puts me one step a head of pseudo populists such as yourself.

There's a big difference between understanding how the world works and being able to think of ideas to make it better, you appear sorely lacking in the latter...

 

[Carousel]

Eh? Aren't you supposed to be the one championing these ideas?

Ho ho. Don't think so.

You're losing the plot, I said I referred to democracy, not to socialism

So why does the opening question refer to the left rather than some general matter of public choice?

Are you telling me the objective of a political ideology is not the control of power?

It could be to sit at the right hand of the baby Jesus or reach a state of perfect enlightenment through ego loss. To some degree an individual's political ideology expresses their take on the meaning of existence.

 

[Carousel]

So to sum up your political beliefs you just want to sit on the fence and snipe at everything that goes wrong and bitch at people who don't share your view?

To be fair, he also has his bad points.

But works very well for the major parties (and the extreme right parties now it would seem)

Nah. It's the power of suggestion. An appeal to the emotions, not to logic. Professional "public affairs". You don't persuade someone to buy deodorant through logic and argument, but by telling their subconscious they'll come over all alpha when they spray.

 

[_pH_]

How many times have I pointed out to you that I don't see my role as persuading some passive working class but rather think sections of the working class will move towards such ideas through the necessity of struggle. Like I said struggle and conflict tends to break the grip of 'common sense' and provoke interest in different ideas.

The very notion that an individual can simply persuade a mass of people into accepting their politics is the most childish of bourgeois myths, to then use it as a criticism of someones politics is pathetic, especially when the person in question has no illusions of doing so and the person doing the criticising has no answer either.

Like I said I might not have a 12 step plan drawn up but I'd imagine at least having a clear understanding of what my politicsare puts me one step a head of pseudo populists such as yourself.

yep, good answer

so no idea then?

and you have no idea of my politics (like I said, I'm playing devil's advocate here) so cut out the sniping and crap about 'bourgeois myths', it's makes you look pathetic tbh.

btw, when I was asking 'you' how you would get your message across to the 'working class', it was meant as 'you', plural, people with your political beliefs. But obviously you let your ego assume it was all about you as an individual, well done

Oh, and as for 'an individual' persuading a mass of people into accepting their beliefs: Ghandi perhaps? But then he was more intelligent and charismatic than you'll ever be revol. You (as an individual) are in the political wilderness and with your patronising attitude, always will be

 

[CyberRose]

Ho ho. Don't think so.

Well I fail to see the point of most of your previous comments in this thread then

So why does the opening question refer to the left rather than some general matter of public choice?

You weren't replying to the opening question you were replying to an aside that I made about those on the left and their supposed democratic principles that conveniently go out the window when it suits them

It could be to sit at the right hand of the baby Jesus or reach a state of perfect enlightenment through ego loss. To some degree an individual's political ideology expresses their take on the meaning of existence.

You're confusing politics with philosophy...

 

[CyberRose]

Nah. It's the power of suggestion. An appeal to the emotions, not to logic. Professional "public affairs". You don't persuade someone to buy deodorant through logic and argument, but by telling their subconscious they'll come over all alpha when they spray.

Love the way you start that sentence with the word "nah" then go on to explain how I'm right!

 

[Carousel]

Well I fail to see the point of most of your previous comments in this thread then

I wouldn't see it as a failure. I succeed in not seeing the point in anything.

You weren't replying to the opening question

I'm always replying to the opening question. Even now.

You're confusing politics with philosophy

Nope. I'm equating political ideology with philosophy. Me personally, I see politics as the field of collective action. I suppose for most punters, politics is social policy, which really is political philosophy in so far as it expresses values. So there you go. What can you do?

 

[Carousel]

Love the way you start that sentence with the word "nah" then go on to explain how I'm right!

The power of NLP bruv.

 

[Carousel]

You're confusing politics with philosophy

I wouldn't want to claim all the credit. I'm merely confusing politics with maths. Russell and Wittgenstein confuse maths and philosophy. The feat you mention is a team effort. I couldn't have done it without them.

 

[tbaldwin]

'Having read a lot of books' doesn't necessarily equate to 'being clever'. You seem to have a vast knowledge of political theory, but seem clueless as to how you're going to persuade people to come across to your way of thinking. Seems a bit of a waste of time reading all those books to me, not that clever at all.

Yep. One of the problems the left has is people who have read all the theories,loads of books.....But are unable to understand people they seem to view as less clever...

And revols point about peoples ideas changing in struggle etc et blooddy swp and anarcho wonderland etc looks more inspired by ideology and books than actual experience.

 

[revol68]

btw, when I was asking 'you' how you would get your message across to the 'working class', it was meant as 'you', plural, people with your political beliefs. But obviously you let your ego assume it was all about you as an individual, well done

I think any reasonable person would have understood the you as relating to me directly, after all it was in this context,

Having read a lot of books' doesn't necessarily equate to 'being clever'. You seem to have a vast knowledge of political theory, but seem clueless as to how you're going to persuade people to come across to your way of thinking. Seems a bit of a waste of time reading all those books to me, not that clever at all.

May I also suggest that you yourself are espousing a political position even in your apparent dismissal of politics.

and you have no idea of my politics (like I said, I'm playing devil's advocate here) so cut out the sniping and crap about 'bourgeois myths', it's makes you look pathetic tbh.

regardless of whatever politics you profess to hold it doesn't change the fact that your notion of individuals simply changing peoples ideas through persuasion is a 'bourgeois myth' and one you extol further with your simplistic notion of Ghandi's role in Indian independence.

Ghandi perhaps? But then he was more intelligent and charismatic than you'll ever be revol. You (as an individual) are in the political wilderness and with your patronising attitude, always will be

Even funnier is the suggestion that me failing to live up to his charismatic leadership was some terrible failing, I mean I might be a bit pretentious but I don't imagine myself being such a historical figure as Ghandi, I can live with that especially as it means I'm under no expectation to pimp religious pacificism whilst beating my partners.

You (as an individual) are in the political wilderness and with your patronising attitude, always will be

Well I don't know what your politics are but I am under no illusions as to how widespread (or not) my politics are amongst most working class people. I would hardly call sticking to your principles instead of watering them down for easier consumption patronising, it might be many things but it's far from patronising. I'd imagine hiding your politics or presenting them dishonestly in a bid for popularity is more patronising, based as it is on assumed others are too thick to ever grasp them.

That you snipe at other peoples politics whilst hiding your own is particularly contempible.

 

[Carousel]

One of the problems the left has…

So, are you of the left?

 

[tbaldwin]

So, are you of the left?

I am on the Left. But that doesnt mean i accept the current orthodoxies of the left on crime,immigration and public spending.

On all 3 of those issues the current left has lost its way and lost the respect of the people who should be its natural supporters.

 

[FreddyB]

Yep. One of the problems the left has is people who have read all the theories,loads of books.....But are unable to understand people they seem to view as less clever...

It's not just people on the left, it's people generally. A lot of talk by people of people being selfish/stupid, but not them, other people.

 

[tbaldwin]

It's not just people on the left, it's people generally. A lot of talk by people of people being selfish/stupid, but not them, other people.

TRUE.

 

[FreddyB]

It's all about liberalism, the tory brand of liberalism - There's no such thing as society, only individuals and their families.

People don't believe it of themselves but believe it of others. I see a guy regularly who lives on benefits, perfectly legitimately as far as I know but he loves a moan about the "scrounging bastards" who ruin it for him. He doesn't know any, he's read about them though.

 

[revol68]

It's not just people on the left, it's people generally. A lot of talk by people of people being selfish/stupid, but not them, other people.

Isn't that what's going on in this thread though, people are always talking about the working class as a mythical other. They never say "I don't understand this" or "I'm not interested in that", they always say "The working class aren't".

 

[FreddyB]

Yeah, and it goes on all sorts of threads and in all sorts of conversations. It is a psychological/social thing I guess. More talk of 'we' generally would be a good thing.

 

[CyberRose]

Isn't that what's going on in this thread though, people are always talking about the working class as a mythical other. They never say "I don't understand this" or "I'm not interested in that", they always say "The working class aren't".

Why would anyone posting regularly on a politics forum be disinterested in politics?

 

[the button]

Yeah, and it goes on all sorts of threads and in all sorts of conversations. It is a psychological/social thing I guess. More talk of 'we' generally would be a good thing.

I kind of know what you mean. But "we"-talk has been pretty much corrupted by "we" as "members of my particular grouplet."

Another variation on this is the "I must be right, the working class agree with me," trope. Also known as "docker bingo." There was a (prominent) SWP member in my old union (the CPSA) who always used to weave in some reference to talking to a docker, and how this mythical docker always seemed to agree with the SWP party line of the time. To such an extent that we used to time him to see how long it took him to mention the docker. Hence the term "docker bingo." Great days.

 

[Fedayn]

I kind of know what you mean. But "we"-talk has been pretty much corrupted by "we" as "members of my particular grouplet."

Another variation on this is the "I must be right, the working class agree with me," trope. Also known as "docker bingo." There was a (prominent) SWP member in my old union (the CPSA) who always used to weave in some reference to talking to a docker, and how this mythical docker always seemed to agree with the SWP party line of the time. To such an extent that we used to time him to see how long it took him to mention the docker. Hence the term "docker bingo." Great days.

We play a similar game at PCS conference of 'Actually' bingo with 'prominent' SWPers in PCS.

 

[revol68]

Why would anyone posting regularly on a politics forum be disinterested in politics?

That's the point they aren't they just throw up 'but the working class aren't interested in that etc' when they can't actually make an argument against something. It's like the person who says I'd go on strike or I agree with that point except the rest of them never will.

If you come on here to have a political discussion then argue for and against things with your actual politics, don't appeal to some mythical homogenous working class, that really is the pinnacle of 'bad faith'.

 

[the button]

We play a similar game at PCS conference of 'Actually' bingo with 'prominent' SWPers in PCS.

Do they still do the 'mention three strikes and an international issue' thing in all their speeches?

 

[revol68]

Do they still do the 'mention three strikes and an international issue' thing in all their speeches?

and end sentences with 'so on and so forth...'

 

[the button]

and end sentences with 'so on and so forth...'

"... and so forf," surely? They're all working class, dontcha know?

 

[revol68]

"... and so forf," surely? They're all working class, dontcha know?

I thought they were all muslim these days?

 

[Fedayn]

Do they still do the 'mention three strikes and an international issue' thing in all their speeches?

They're a bit more 'reined' in these days cos they don't want to look like arses cos the Left control the union now they don't wanna look too daft. Some of them at this years were belters mind. They do seem to have a speech plan that's very similar to all their other swp mates mind.

Far more worrying was a few of them being nice to me this year....

 

[Fedayn]

I thought they were all muslim these days?

No, they're all 'Hezbollah'.

 

[revol68]

No, they're all 'Hezbollah'.

No, WE are all Hezbollah!