Does the left understand the working class and how would they answer their concerns?

[Carousel]

See, I was under the impression that they are in the majority money grubbing cunts with an interest in career over principle.

Sanctimonious.

 

[DotCommunist]

Half what problem? The popularity of the left is not a problem for the working class.

half the problem with parliamentary democracy dear, do keep up.

Unless you are labouring under the misapprehension that a significant proportion of those who can; do vote?

 

[Carousel]

Sorry, in what way is it a problem?

 

[revol68]

See, I was under the impression that they are in the majority money grubbing cunts with an interest in career over principle.

So if they were principled in their shit politics it'd be fine?

The problem isn't the personal integrity of this or that politician or party, the problem is the political and economic system as whole. The problem is capital and the state.

 

[DotCommunist]

Sanctimonious.

principle is not sanctimony dear, but carry on.

 

[revol68]

half the problem with parliamentary democracy dear, do keep up.

Unless you are labouring under the misapprehension that a significant proportion of those who can; do vote?

The problem is parliamentary democracy, which is itself only a partial problem of state and capital.

 

[Carousel]

Well given everyone seems pretty much concerned with their popularity for it's own sake, we're left wondering what the problem actually is. If it's a matter of austerity, all the nationalisation and immigration control and currency management didn't help in the 70's and won't help now.

 

[DotCommunist]

So if they were principled in their shit politics it'd be fine?

The problem isn't the personal integrity of this or that politician or party, the problem is the political and economic system as whole. The problem is capital and the state.

yes and if a politician had principles he would be fighting for de-centralised power and local decision making collectives. Rather than executive centralised bollocks and and an over inflated state apparatus.

 

[revol68]

principle is not sanctimony dear, but carry on.

I don't care that politicians sell out whatever principles they have to get a seat at the table, I care that they are able to.

Anything else is moralising wank posteuring as politics.

 

[DotCommunist]

Believe me I want Parecon, or even council communism. But short of bloody revolution we don't get there without getting parliamentary democracy to dismantle itself

 

[Carousel]

Good vs evil. Edgy stuff.

Believe me I want Parecon

Ah the ideology of choice for the risk averse mediocrity. Inspiring.

 

[revol68]

yes and if a politician had principles he would be fighting for de-centralised power and local decision making collectives. Rather than executive centralised bollocks and and an over inflated state apparatus.

really?

Surely not if one supports the principle of a centralised executive and strong state?

 

[revol68]

Believe me I want Parecon, or even council communism. But short of bloody revolution we don't get there without getting parliamentary democracy to dismantle itself

Parecon is bollox and parliamentary democracy will not dismantle itself.

Do you honestly think council communism will come about through the gradual decentralisation of the capitalist state?

 

[DotCommunist]

really?

Surely not if one supports the principle of a centralised executive and strong state?

see above. It has the biggest sticks. It won't be changed save through blood or through getting it to dismantle itself using the extant process.

 

[Carousel]

But short of bloody revolution we don't get there without getting parliamentary democracy to dismantle itself

I bet the working class can't wait to fill in their requistion forms for their Union Jack pants. Ha ha. What box do I tick for more sex chat phone services?

 

[revol68]

Good vs evil. Edgy stuff.

Ah the ideology of choice for the risk averse mediocrity. Inspiring.

It really is nonsense.

It's the revolutionary equivalent of the twat who always brings a pack lunch to work.

 

[DotCommunist]

Parecon is bollox and parliamentary democracy will not dismantle itself.

Do you honestly think council communism will come about through the gradual decentralisation of the capitalist state?

Gradual? no. Drastic, yes. Getting there (in a position to effect dramatic change) is the problem.

How is Parecon bollox? the only massive glaring flaw I can see is in that it ignores black/grey economies and would be undermined thusly.


Of course capital remains the spectre haunting. But if we can make exchange equitable instead of a game of who-can-mug-who off. Well, then we may have the U word I dare not say.

 

[Carousel]

It's the revolutionary equivalent of the twat who always brings a pack lunch to work.

Ha ha ha. It's a fucking winner. The proles'll feel well cheated when the populists implement that. "Those leftist fuckers, they promised me more Posh and Becks and all I got was this requisition sheet". Ho ho ho.

But if we can make exchange equitable instead of a game of who-can-mug-who off.

Oh come on. That's half the fun of it. Populism or Temperance Society, what's it gonna be? About as populist as Quakerism.

 

[revol68]

well the problem with parecon is that the world doesn't unfold according to some anal arseholes wetdream. Communism isn't simply about doing away with exchange for profit but rather it's about the assertion of human subjectivty over it's labour.

 

[Carousel]

Ha ha. You're creasing me up. You may as well be setting out the problem with unicorns.

 

[DotCommunist]

well the problem with parecon is that the world doesn't unfold according to some anal arseholes wetdream. Communism isn't simply about doing away with exchange for profit but rather it's about the assertion of human subjectivty over it's labour.

Have you read moving forward?

It is entirely devoted to quite simply explaining how human subjectivity can be placed over labour. It's a little heavy on the Jane and John analogies but it's fairly well thought out. And one thing it is stringent in pointing out is the value of flexible systems for individuals and flexible systems of employment.

Some interesting ideas, although as I say it lacks the explanation of how to deal with black/grey economies. There's a bit about grey economies but it isn't entirely convincing if you've dealt in that realm irl.

http://www.zmag.org/zparecon/movingforward.htm

 

[Darios]

Communism isn't simply about doing away with exchange for profit but rather it's about the assertion of human subjectivty over it's labour.

Fuck me - and you expect to be able to explain this to people, how? I can barely make head or tail of what you're trying to say.

 

[Carousel]

Oh dear. So what bourgeois social institutions shall we maintain in the name of populism? The nation: for sure. The monarchy: why not? Hey why not "capitalism" itself? Seems to be working out well enough.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

I can see why they banned you tbf.

 

[Carousel]

Popular move.

 

[FridgeMagnet]

Maybe they understood the working class.

 

[DotCommunist]

Fuck me - and you expect to be able to explain this to people, how? I can barely make head or tail of what you're trying to say.

Not really rocket science dude.

 

[Carousel]

Maybe they understood the working class.

Max Clifford and Richard Desmond.

 

[revol68]

Fuck me - and you expect to be able to explain this to people, how? I can barely make head or tail of what you're trying to say.

Yes because when I was chatting to Firefighters on strike they were entralled by my suggestion that the assumption that labour is always paid it's full value in Marx's Capital posed problemtic in regards to the role of proletarian subjectivity in driving the development of capitalism.

Like I said I don't see it as my role to go the the working class like some prophet but rather I think struggle can create circumstances where people are open to different ideas, are more willing to question their assumptions and more importantly seek to learn more themselves.

The title of this thread and the tone of many posters on this thread suggests they see learning as a one way and passive process. Needless to say it is patronising as fuck.

 

[The39thStep]

reading backwards I dealt with your point about bosses first, so let me reiterate the point form a proletarian perspective.

Don't workers share a fundamental common interest in higher wages and less hours despite being working in different restraunt chains, having different religions (or none), different groups of friends, tastes and nationality?

Isn't the the most central organisng force in the everyday life of proletarians all around the world, capital, not allah or jesus, their race or nationality and infact these ideologies only serve to pit workers against each other?

These are the very basics of internatioanlism and class struggle politics that need to be reasserted, not watered down or given up in order to appeal to the populism of the time. Without these principles there is fuck all point having influence or being relevant.

job is already filled and has been for some time. if you want to go and stay with him and see how the working class really live then a number of us can advise you how to get in touch with him.