Does the left understand the working class and how would they answer their concerns?

[Carousel]

I'm not on a wind up. Any criticism you've inferred is conjured up by your own victim mentality. Part of the trait is to read insult or criticism into quite innocuous observations. I do agree that a critique of the left is even less useful than the left itself and I'd add that things don't need a point to happen.

Can we not take here and now as a starting point?

I'm reminded of the old Situationist adage along the lines of "they'll do everything to improve the quality of boredom".

 

[FreddyB]

I'm not on a wind up. Any criticism you've inferred is conjured up by your own victim mentality. Part of the trait is to read insult or criticism into quite innocuous observations. I do agree that a critique of the left is even less useful than the left itself and I'd add that things don't need a point to happen.

How exactly is

It's a personality trait. It defines to some degree the people drawn to left wing ideas, informs their "politics" and accounts for their situation and cycle of self defeat.

not a criticism or if you prefer a critical observation.

It lets you categorise a group of people but what use is it to me?

 

[Carousel]

I don't share your values, so whereas you see it as a criticsm, I do not. I think it's more of a charming quirk. It may be useful to you as a form of entertainment, I don't know. I'd imagine being caught in a cycle of self defeat adds to your authentic sense of oppression and in so doing flatters your "politics".

 

[JimW]

I don't share your values, so whereas you see it as a criticsm, I do not. I think it's more of a charming quirk. It may be useful to you as a form of entertainment, I don't know. I'd imagine being caught in a cycle of self defeat adds to your authentic sense of oppression and in so doing flatters your "politics".

Still at the phrenology I see.

 

[Carousel]

Mate, look at Crimewatch. You can't tell me it doesn't work. As a wrong'un myself, I can vouch for it.

 

[JimW]

I've a friend here who swears by the local version - apparently my weirdly wide forehead is a good thing.

 

[FreddyB]

I don't share your values, so whereas you see it as a criticsm, I do not. I think it's more of a charming quirk. It may be useful to you as a form of entertainment, I don't know. I'd imagine being caught in a cycle of self defeat adds to your authentic sense of oppression and in so doing flatters your "politics".

So what do I take it from it? Does your insight help me modify my "politics" and escape the cycle of defeat I'm in?

 

[LLETSA]

I'm reminded of the old Situationist adage along the lines of "they'll do everything to improve the quality of boredom".

Whereas Carousel lowers the quality of boredom with his repetitive kiddie-angst apoliticism.

 

[LLETSA]

As a wrong'un myself, I can vouch for it.

The only way you're a wrong 'un is in the head, loony tunes.

 

[Pickman's model]

Whereas Carousel lowers the quality of boredom with his repetitive kiddie-angst apoliticism.

we rarely see eye to eye, but i entirely agree.

 

[Carousel]

So what do I take it from it? Does your insight help me modify my "politics" and escape the cycle of defeat I'm in?

Intriguing. I'm inclined to imagine you believe that the obstacles that confront you are caused by injustice. Yes?

 

[Carousel]

we rarely see eye to eye, but i entirely agree.

The power of social proof.

 

[LLETSA]

we rarely see eye to eye, but i entirely agree.

What's difficult to fathom is his obsession with incessantly chasing around those whose politics he considers irrelevant. You'd think ubermenschen would have bigger fish to fry.

The world has let him down and you lot are to blame.

 

[Carousel]

Fascinating aren't I. You love it.

 

[JHE]

Fascinating aren't I. You love it.

'Look at me! Look at me!' shrieked Simple Alf, as he lowered his trousers and waved his bits about. 'You love it!'

 

[FreddyB]

Intriguing. I'm inclined to imagine you believe that the obstacles that confront you are caused by injustice. Yes?

Not the way I'd put it. More I have little control over the social and economic circumstances that form the backdrop to my life, I can modify my own behaviour to fit those circumstances as they change but I have no tangible influence on those circumstances.

 

[Carousel]

Are you seriously telling us that you've got so little control over your own circumstances you can't even attain the mediocrity of traditional household existence?

'Look at me! Look at me!' shrieked Simple Alf, as he lowered his trousers and waved his bits about. 'You love it!'

Drawing attention to yourself for its own sake using stunts and flamboyant ridiculous spectacle flies in the face of socialist values.

 

[LLETSA]

Fascinating aren't I.

Only in your complete lack of self awareness and your level of obsessiveness.

 

[Carousel]

You're hanging on my every word. It's plain to see.

 

[LLETSA]

Are you seriously telling us that you've got so little control over your own circumstances you can't even attain the mediocrity of traditional household existence?

Come on Freddy-rise above your mediocrity and make it your life's mission to follow lefties around obscure messageboards talking half-baked Nietzsche and telling lies about yourself.

The ubermensch's room for maneouvre seems to have been restricted by passing time.

 

[FreddyB]

Are you seriously telling us that you've got so little control over your own circumstances you can't even attain the mediocrity of traditional household existence?

Exactly what I'm telling you. One day I'm earning this doing that the next I'm not, I need to do something else. Fucker of it is though that I'm not alone in finding myself needing to find something else to do and when there's more people looking than there are jobs to do I'm in fucking trouble, or maybe I'm lucky and I get something. Don't know yet.

Traditional household existence is not the easiest thing to hold onto now compared to a couple of years ago. I'm doing so at the moment but plenty aren't. Injustice or reality? You tell me.

 

[revol68]

In my experience of people most would be happy with a secure job that doesn't fuck them up and pays enough to cover the bills, a 2 week holiday, beers at the weekend and doesn't take up more than 40hours a week.

I think the trick for the left, before any talk of revolution is to try and get people together to get what they want. To demonstrate in the here and now how by being united they can improve their position. It won't come from books, it's got to be relevant and recent examples. Visteon for example, not great in as much as everyone was fucked over but without their action, by themselves for themselves they'd have been more fucked over.

Work together and you can get what you want - not what someone tells you you want.

woah that's really innovative, well it would be if that wasn't what the 'left' has been trying to do for years. You mention Visteon and that is a good example because it was a case where the left and anarchist did a lot of good support work but it also shows the need for a more militant perspective and criticism of the Unions. The Belfast Visteon workers stayed in and occupied their plant, whilst the others left under directive from their union, this massively weakened their position and so when the vote came on the deal (which was shit in truth) the English workers voted to accept it as they had no leverage, which in turn forced the Belfast workers to accept it two days later, albeit with a far higher no vote than the two english plants. If the English workers had told their union to get fucked and occupied their plants they'd have been in far stronger position and could have held out for a much better deal. As it was many of the English workers who voted to accept it regretted doing so and a great deal of them are pissed off at their union.

It's on these things such as the role of unions that I feel anarchists and communists should be more explicit on and I know that many in the Belfast Organise! group felt they should have been more forward in arguing their politics.

In my experience of people most would be happy with a secure job that doesn't fuck them up and pays enough to cover the bills, a 2 week holiday, beers at the weekend and doesn't take up more than 40hours a week.

A lot of people say that but if they got it they'd then want something better and then better, or at least that's what I hope because if that's the final dream of humanity it's a bit depressing.

 

[LLETSA]

A lot of people say that but if they got it they'd then want something better and then better, or at least that's what I hope because if that's the final dream of humanity it's a bit depressing.

What a fucking rude awkening you've got coming, son.

 

[Pickman's model]

Exactly what I'm telling you. One day I'm earning this doing that the next I'm not, I need to do something else. Fucker of it is though that I'm not alone in finding myself needing to find something else to do and when there's more people looking than there are jobs to do I'm in fucking trouble, or maybe I'm lucky and I get something. Don't know yet.

Traditional household existence is not the easiest thing to hold onto now compared to a couple of years ago. I'm doing so at the moment but plenty aren't. Injustice or reality? You tell me.

sadly this is nothing new, and as - by definition - half the population will fail to achieve mediocrity, it's a situation very many people find themselves in. rather than being something to deride, it should be something to do something about - not just on an individual level but on a structural one.

 

[FreddyB]

A lot of people say that but if they got it they'd then want something better and then better, or at least that's what I hope because if that's the final dream of humanity it's a bit depressing.

I think if they got it and were secure in it then yes, I think you're probably right, there's every reason to suppose that people would want to extend their position. In June 2009 though there's plenty of people who had it and wish to fuck they could again.

 

[Pickman's model]

woah that's really innovative, well it would be if that wasn't what the 'left' has been trying to do for years.

says more about the left than about the continuing need for it.

 

[revol68]

'in my experience of people most would be happy with a secure job that doesn't fuck them up and pays enough to cover the bills, a 2 week holiday, beers at the weekend and doesn't take up more than 40hours a week.'



@Freddy B, good post, in fact you basically described my late fathers view of life, and mine

What age are you? Such a world view makes some sense coming from a soul crushed by capitalism for 60 years, for you to hold the same outlook is utterly pathetic.

Carousel has point, if peoples expectations and desires are so utterly banal and worse than mediocre then should we be surprised when the ruling classes shovel shit down your throat and tell you it's truffles.

 

[revol68]

What a fucking rude awkening you've got coming, son.

well maybe I do but at least I'll stick my own politics and desires instead of turning into a miserable misanthropic pseudo populist prick like your good self.

 

[LLETSA]

well maybe I do but at least I'll stick my own politics and desires instead of turning into a miserable misanthropic pseudo populist prick like your good self.

Actually, you won't. That's the sad thing.

 

[northernhord]

The Swp dont understand working class folk at all.