Does the left understand the working class and how would they answer their concerns?

[Carousel]

Ha ha. He's like a young Vaneigem. Sullied by the act of buying a coffee.

 

[revol68]

Fine. But what of those who keep everything running, including everything you rely on? You know-those you want to join you in your utopian fantasy?

yes I'm well aware that it is impossible for everyone to do what i'm doing this summer, just as it's impossible for everyone to be on £20,000 in an office job for an insurance company or whatever.

Saying as my work experience is in software testing and admin for financial institutions I think I can live with myself for not putting my shift in at keeping society functioning.

 

[Darios]

pathetic excuse for what?

did I ever say I wanted to be self employed?

I find the whole world of commerce disgusting, it taints everything with it's baseness and I have no interest in entangling myself in the morality of the accounts book further than I already need to.

You are a complete caricature and you don't realise it.

This summer I'm going to get by on the dole and some shitty medical trial, spend my days out in the sun(hopefully) reading books, drinking, going to gigs and of course probably talking some shit on here, certainly seems more attractive to me than sitting in an office 9-5 for £6 an hour.

Fantastic. I'm pleased to know the money those of us who lower ourselves to work in jobs we don't necessarily love going into the collective pot for the weak and the needy is subsidizing your lifestyle and enabling you to preach to the rest of us.

 

[LLETSA]

This is kind of what I was getting at. IMO, there are few more pernicious concepts in the leftist armoury than "false consciousness," which is where answers to this question often lead.

Here we have Carousel, the self-styled leftie renegade, fantasising about being Oleg Deripaska, and little revol, the talking gnome, with his Paris '68 handbook, both sneering at mediocrity of the very people they rely on for everything from the moment they wake to the moment they go back to their wanking pits.

I suppose you can forgive revol, what with him still being at school and everything.

 

[revol68]

This is kind of what I was getting at. IMO, there are few more pernicious concepts in the leftist armoury than "false consciousness," which is where answers to this question often lead.

That's cos your a Foucaultian fruit.

I'm not a big fan of 'false consciousness' but what else would you describe a worker who over performs in meeting targets and boasts of it, or those twatty workers in the 70's who worked an extra half an hour to 'Back Britain'? I think putting it down to false consciousness is actually the polite thing to do.

Sure I don't accept some objective consciousness, but from the subjective perspective of collective proletarian interest such acts are examples of 'false consciousness'.

 

[Carousel]

Here we have Carousel, the self-styled leftie renegade, fantasising about being Oleg Deripaska, and little revol, the talking gnome, with his Paris '68 handbook, both sneering at mediocrity of the very people they rely on for everything from the moment they wake to the moment they go back to their wanking pits.

I suppose you can forgive revol, what with him still being at school and everything.

Yeah you should write a book on us.

 

[LLETSA]

Yeah you should write a book on us.

No. Nobody should.

 

[Darios]

yes I'm well aware that it is impossible for everyone to do what i'm doing this summer,

Glad to see you recognise your own hypocrisy.

just as it's impossible for everyone to be on £20,000 in an office job for an insurance company or whatever.

Is it? Whatever differences I have with the Socialists, I could at least see something like the above being quite possible, and to some extent a noble goal. Every full time worker on at least 20k? Yes that is possible.

Saying as my work experience is in software testing and admin for financial institutions I think I can live with myself for not putting my shift in at keeping society functioning.

^ And you expect that this will enamor you and your point of view to the working people how exactly?

 

[Carousel]

No. Nobody should.

You just did. More of a pamphlet.

 

[LLETSA]

subjective perspective of collective proletarian interest

 

[LLETSA]

You just did. More of a pamphlet.

It was a post on a message board, 'bruv.'

 

[Carousel]

Don't put youself down. Good effort.

 

[revol68]

You are a complete caricature and you don't realise it.



Fantastic. I'm pleased to know the money those of us who lower ourselves to work in jobs we don't necessarily love going into the collective pot for the weak and the needy is subsidizing your lifestyle and enabling you to preach to the rest of us.

dickwad i've payed into that pot myself not that it bothered me in the slightest that some people were living it up on it when I was working, though that might be because I'm not a sad bitter twat who has bought into state propaganda hook line and sinker. You do realise the less people looking for work the better it is for workers selling their labour? I mean this is basic shit.

also the first point was meant to verge on the caricatured, I'd just been thinking about The Confederacy of Dunces.

 

[LLETSA]

Don't put youself down. Good effort.

Hey ta, 'bruv.'

 

[revol68]

Glad to see you recognise your own hypocrisy.



Is it? Whatever differences I have with the Socialists, I could at least see something like the above being quite possible, and to some extent a noble goal. Every full time worker on at least 20k? Yes that is possible.



^ And you expect that this will enamor you and your point of view to the working people how exactly?

Firstly get yourself a dictionary or at least do a google. The definition of hypocrisy is not doing something you realise would be impossible for everyone to do. Otherwise getting onto a bus would make you a hypocrite. I'd be a hypocrite if I expected everyone to go on the dole, or if I worked and whinged at everyone else for not having a job.

Every worker on 20k, no I don't think that's possible in the near future and if it did happen I'd imagine other wages would rise as well as prices (though I'm not espousing the Iron rule of wages here) and so inequality would still exist.

 

[Darios]

dickwad i've payed into that pot myself not that it bothered me in the slightest that some people were living it up on it when I was working,

Woooh. Onto the name calling now.

though that might be because I'm not a sad bitter twat

Are you sure that isn't projection? On a personal level I'm very happy and grateful for all the good things in my life.

who has bought into state propaganda hook line and sinker.

That's right. I'm the pro-state anti-statist.

You do realise the less people looking for work the better it is for workers selling their labour? I mean this is basic shit.

You do realise the more people out of work, the worse it is for everyone as taxes have to support them that could either be spent on other things (like healthcare or education), or back in the pockets of the workers. I mean this is "basic shit".

also the first point was meant to verge on the caricatured, I'd just been thinking about The Confederacy of Dunces.

Congratulations.

 

[CyberRose]

I know I had it better than that in my software testing job, fexi time, up to 2 hour lunches, and 3 weeks holidays, still bored the shit out of me and the fact I was wasting my days making sure a fucking insurance company had it's records intact was deeply depressing.

After the revolution what job would you have that you would really enjoy doing?

 

[Darios]

I'd be a hypocrite if I expected everyone to go on the dole, or if I worked and whinged at everyone else for not having a job.

However, you aren't working and are whinging at everyone who appears to be content to just secure a reasonable job.

Every worker on 20k, no I don't think that's possible in the near future and if it did happen I'd imagine other wages would rise as well as prices (though I'm not espousing the Iron rule of wages here) and so inequality would still exist.

Newsflash! Inequality will always exist. Unless you want all of us to be exact clones with identical lives?

 

[CyberRose]

well for insurance, financial and sales company employees I'd imagine non existent.

So you're political ideology has a goal of making thousands unemployed?!

 

[revol68]

Saying as my work experience is in software testing and admin for financial institutions I think I can live with myself for not putting my shift in at keeping society functioning.

^ And you expect that this will enamor you and your point of view to the working people how exactly?

Sorry please tell me what vital contribution me working for an insurance company would have or maybe even me working in a call centre which seems to be the only work going at the moment in Belfast?

Also what is this 'working people' shite? Gordan Brown works, Alan Sugar works, mananging directors and CEO's work. I couldn't give a fuck about 'working people', my concern is the 'working class' which is not the same thing and has a great many of it's number not in work.

 

[revol68]

So you're political ideology has a goal of making thousands unemployed?!

You might not have noticed but I'm a communist my goal is to make everyone unemployed.

Now before you shriek like a hysterical muppet, perhaps you should take the time to closely read that sentence, taking special care over the meaning of the term unemployed.

 

[Pickman's model]

You might not have noticed but I'm a communist my goal is to make everyone unemployed.

Now before you shriek like a hysterical muppet, perhaps you should take the time to closely read that sentence, taking special care over the meaning of the term unemployed.

so boredom's just a subsidiary aim of yours till the revolution comes and wage slavery's abolished.

 

[revol68]

so boredom's just a subsidiary aim of yours till the revolution comes and wage slavery's abolished.

I love how you're pathetic need to bitch at me has led to you overlooking post after post of outright reactionary shite that'd have imagined would have went against even your rather shit politics.

 

[the button]

subjective perspective of collective proletarian interest

lols aside (and must I admit I chuckled), this seems to me to be exactly what the thread is about.

The gap between the subjective interests of individual members of the working class (which are not illusory or 'false' -- anyone who thinks they're illusory should try missing paying a few bills and see what happens ), and the collective interests that revol is talking about.

The problem (if it is a problem) is how to get from one to the other. There seem to be a number of options: -

* actually no, you're wrong. The interests you think you have are not your real ones. Let me tell you what they are. And while we're about it, would you like to buy a paper?
* there is a continuity between your individual interests and the interests of the working class as a whole.
* your individual interests are opposed to those of the working class, so you should stop having them for the greater good, like some sort of marxist ascetic.
* probably some more as well.

 

[revol68]

However, you aren't working and are whinging at everyone who appears to be content to just secure a reasonable job.



Newsflash! Inequality will always exist. Unless you want all of us to be exact clones with identical lives?

Yes if you are content with your 40 hr a week job and hold no other aspirations then yes it's fucking pathetic. Saying that in no way makes me a hypocrite as I held the same belief when I was in employment.

Yeah cos like that time me and my workmate were both on £6 an hour and it got really annoying cos we kept showing up to the same clubs, giggs and movies dressed in the same clothes, haircut and girlfriend.

 

[Darios]

You might not have noticed but I'm a communist my goal is to make everyone unemployed.

Now before you shriek like a hysterical muppet, perhaps you should take the time to closely read that sentence, taking special care over the meaning of the term unemployed.

Hilarious.

You can dance around the finer points of your version of "unemployed" all you like.

Lots of shite and back breaking work will still need to be done, whatever political settlement you choose.

 

[CyberRose]

You might not have noticed but I'm a communist my goal is to make everyone unemployed.

Now before you shriek like a hysterical muppet, perhaps you should take the time to closely read that sentence, taking special care over the meaning of the term unemployed.

And what will you be doing in this society? Astronaut? Porn Star?!

 

[Pickman's model]

I love how you're pathetic need to bitch at me has led to you overlooking post after post of outright reactionary shite that'd have imagined would have went against even your rather shit politics.

i've only been posting here a matter of hours, but i've already noticed a steaming stream of shite emanating from the larne liar.

 

[Pickman's model]

And what will you be doing in this society? Astronaut? Porn Star?!

more likely prisoner.

 

[Carousel]

I think working towards a position where decent working and living conditions are the norm by starting with the assertion that we should be perfectly entitled to expect them is a good start.

A sense of entitlement. I dunno. It seems it was a matter of injustice after all. Tell us where this entitlement to a traditional household existence comes from. I hope it's not a question of decency or honour.