Does the left understand the working class and how would they answer their concerns?
- Thread starter CyberRose
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FridgeMagnet
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I find it interesting that I did actually go self-employed and become a professional PHP developer specialising in Drupal (amongst a lot of other things) because I was sick of what I was doing and, really, the person I agree with most here is still revol68.
This would be because my politics weren't actually based on the simple fact that I hated my job, I suppose, and that saying "well get a better job" in response to somebody criticising the system is just patronising rubbish. Unless there's some magic point which I have yet to come to where my entire perception of the system that I live in changes because I'm given entrance to the Hidden Seventh Circle of Contractors or something.
This would be because my politics weren't actually based on the simple fact that I hated my job, I suppose, and that saying "well get a better job" in response to somebody criticising the system is just patronising rubbish. Unless there's some magic point which I have yet to come to where my entire perception of the system that I live in changes because I'm given entrance to the Hidden Seventh Circle of Contractors or something.
the button
out on the kocker
Get a better job.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
facist 
the button
out on the kocker
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
Fuck you I won't do what we collaboratively determine my annual goals to be
the button
out on the kocker
Fuck you I won't do what we collaboratively determine my annual goals to be
Fuck collaboration. JFDI.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
the button
out on the kocker
I'm ashamed to say that I find that funny because I've read this book: -
.... and not only that, attempted to "roll out"
mad some aspects of it in my place of work.I'm a bad man.
FridgeMagnet
Administrator
I own a copy and it has post-it notes in it. It's what freelancers do. I even bought a label-maker because of it, though really label-makers are fun in themselves and I have no problem with that.
I also wrote an application which occasionally pops up a picture of Henry Rollins, and says "have you got things the fuck done?" If you say "no", it says "well get them the fuck done then!". If you say "yes", it says "Good. But I'm watching you."
I also wrote an application which occasionally pops up a picture of Henry Rollins, and says "have you got things the fuck done?" If you say "no", it says "well get them the fuck done then!". If you say "yes", it says "Good. But I'm watching you."
revol68
what, fucking what?
lols aside (and must I admit I chuckled), this seems to me to be exactly what the thread is about.
The gap between the subjective interests of individual members of the working class (which are not illusory or 'false' -- anyone who thinks they're illusory should try missing paying a few bills and see what happens), and the collective interests that revol is talking about.
The problem (if it is a problem) is how to get from one to the other. There seem to be a number of options: -
* actually no, you're wrong. The interests you think you have are not your real ones. Let me tell you what they are. And while we're about it, would you like to buy a paper?
* there is a continuity between your individual interests and the interests of the working class as a whole.
* your individual interests are opposed to those of the working class, so you should stop having them for the greater good, like some sort of marxist ascetic.
* probably some more as well.
I don't think they should be mutually exclusive.
It's also not a new contradiction, it's simply the old class in itself versus class for itself issue.
Start a new thread on it, might be more interesting than this one which seems to be little more than a chance for tory muppets to spout shite about benefits.
CyberRose
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Well you voted BNP it's quite obvious you're a fascist
revol68
what, fucking what?
lol.
Okay then, lay out your politics, because from what I've saw you are centrist at best.
The fact you offered no criticism of Dario's right wing shit about people on benefits ripping off 'working people' suggests you are more fixated on berating a strawman left than challenging reactionary shit.
CyberRose
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Well I can't think of any other reason why somebody would be recommending people to vote BNP?
Jesus! I'm not sure I can cover everything I believe in as there isn't an ideology whose dogma I religiously adhere to despite what reality tells me otherwise like you do. You can say communist and cover all your bases cos somebody else did the thinking for you. Generally I would describe myself as a progressive social democrat. I'm not against capitalism other than for important public services (defined by myself buy include energy, transport). I'm a big fan of the Scandinavian economic model of high taxes and high public spending, but also allowing a flourishing private sector. I'm not quite Old Labour but certainly going back in that direction...
I'm a lot more right wing that you, of course, but then you don't decide what is left or right
revol68
what, fucking what?
sorry where did i recommend anyone vote, let alone vote BNP?
Right so you're a right wing social democrat who would have been considered centrist in the 60's.
Your naive notion that you don't have an ideology or a dogma and that you can see 'reality' for what it is without ideology suggests you buy into the present ruling ideology more than you think. How you approach a political issue will define how you perceive it's "reality", where you see a capitalism that just needs reined in a bit, I see a capitalism that will always seek to escape such reins. Where you see it possible for a balance to be struck and upheld by the state, I see only a constant battle between capital and the working class, with concessions being granted and eroded as balance shifts with the state not as a neutral actor but one meant to act as a collective interest of capital, where if left to it's own individual interests would undercut itself.
Right so you're a right wing social democrat who would have been considered centrist in the 60's.
Your naive notion that you don't have an ideology or a dogma and that you can see 'reality' for what it is without ideology suggests you buy into the present ruling ideology more than you think. How you approach a political issue will define how you perceive it's "reality", where you see a capitalism that just needs reined in a bit, I see a capitalism that will always seek to escape such reins. Where you see it possible for a balance to be struck and upheld by the state, I see only a constant battle between capital and the working class, with concessions being granted and eroded as balance shifts with the state not as a neutral actor but one meant to act as a collective interest of capital, where if left to it's own individual interests would undercut itself.
CyberRose
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CyberRose
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Yes but the question is, how are you going to put that message across to ordinary people?!?!!??!
Exactly right-I didn't notice.
My granddad was a communist and he'd turn in his grave to hear your infantile jabber.
revol68
what, fucking what?
Note the IF in my post? IF the BNP are an opposition to capitalism, which funny enough I don't think they are. Also note it is followed with 'and you think an internationalist perspective is pie in the sky irrelevant nonsense', which I patently don't hold as true.
Now if YOU do think that the BNP are an opposition to capitalism freed from the irrelevant tyranny of an internationalist perspective then what may I ask stops you voting for them considering their economic policy could easily be seen as actually left of your own? Is it simply the racism of the party?
revol68
what, fucking what?
You mean your granddad was a Stalinist I'm guessing.
Whatever he was he had better politics than you ever will.
I could imagine you trying to peddle your idiocies in his environment.
CyberRose
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Actually I do consider myself an internationalist as is obvious in other threads I've posted in. I said that you're use of dogmatic jargon is alien to ordinary people (and of whom a huge proportion are against internationalism)
See above
It's not an endorsement, it's the logical conclusion of a nationalist left. The underlying sentiment is irrelevant, especially to working class people who tend to think more in terms of real behaviour and action rather than the invisible contents of minds.CyberRose said:
Carousel has done a broad based survey to test this out.
Want to know what the working class thinks? See the attention-seeking fantasist Carousel.
revol68
what, fucking what?
your grandad was pimping the soviet union as something for workers to emulate in the midst of a cold war.
Actually, he spent much of his life agitating for better conditions in inner-city Manchester, and on building sites and the railways.
Somewhat more difficult than peddling your career dolie, paint-by-numbers anarchocommubollocks for the Hollyoaks generation, I'd wager.
Come back and peddle your crap when you've found a life.
revol68
what, fucking what?
Did I say peddling shite about the Soviet Union meant he couldn't do actual worthwhile agitating as well?
Just as I can support lots of struggles that fall short of producing communism.
You seem to just have a problem with people of my generation in general, you're a grumpy old cunt.
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